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karlo

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Wedge Christie is the skier tipping the outside ski more than the inside ski

That's consistent with what I understood from what others have posted. But, as a qualification, my understanding is that, at this point in learning, the learner is placing most of the COM over the new inside ski as it flattens, projecting the upper body downhill, relative to when that ski was the old outside ski. That's what is putting the new outside ski on edge.

Sorry if this is repetitive. I am just trying to put what I have read and understood down in my own words.
 

JESinstr

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So, is a Wedge Christie essentially the skier standing on the new inside ski and, as a result, the outside ski goes on edge? And, the skier finds that the outside ski's edge creates a turn? Then, the skier gradually learns to rely more and more on the outside ski, through shortening the inside leg and through angulation? If so, then, what motivates a learning skier to utilize the outside ski more?

Karlo, The skier is softening (then shortening) the inside ski not standing on it. If you are standing (in your shoes off skis) and the task is to soften the pressure (that gravity is causing) under your left foot by flexing without leaning your upper body, what happens? Your COM should move laterally to the right. If you do this in a wedge configuration (at low velocity and under gravity) you will be putting pressure on the right (outside) ski. Once centripetal turning force is developed, we start balancing against the outside ski. The inside leg shortens to provide higher edging and angulation to support the continuation of the turn and the building pressure coming up from the outside ski.

I don't understand the utilization comment. Both skis have their important roles. It's about outcomes/results.
I had a student tell me that he thinks of his outside ski as the wings of his 747 and the inside ski as the ailerons that tip them.
 

Magi

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That's consistent with what I understood from what others have posted. But, as a qualification, my understanding is that, at this point in learning, the learner is placing most of the COM over the new inside ski as it flattens, projecting the upper body downhill, relative to when that ski was the old outside ski. That's what is putting the new outside ski on edge.

Sorry if this is repetitive. I am just trying to put what I have read and understood down in my own words.

Ideally - the tipping should come from the legs, and balance remains over/with the outside ski through the whole process.

Beginning skiers may use a whole body inclination toward the inside ski to create the relationship. You, aspiring level 2 candidate, should not (because you'll fail the task). ogsmile
 

Erik Timmerman

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But, as a qualification, my understanding is that, at this point in learning, the learner is placing most of the COM over the new inside ski as it flattens, projecting the upper body downhill, relative to when that ski was the old outside ski. That's what is putting the new outside ski on edge.

That certainly could happen, but when the skier is standing on the inside ski, I'm going to coach them not to. When you ask them to flatten the inside ski, they may very well do that by shifting their body across the skis. IMHO what you really, really want to get them to do is use their feet to edge the skis. I'm going to describe to them and demonstrate how they can manipulate the arch of their foot, lifting one arch from the bottom of the boot and pressing the other into the side of the boot to edge/unedge the skis. I will ask them to place one pole over their belly button so that they can see if their COM moves as they edge their skis. If they do it more with their feet the pole doesn't have to move very much.
 
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karlo

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OK, time to practice on the snow! Thanks so much to all.
 

Jamt

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I don't get it. In the demo posted the boots are quite close in transition and then as the wedge forms they are much wider apart.
I don't understand how that could happen by tipping the outside ski more. There must be something more at play.

If I started with feet wide apart I see that this could happen, but I don't see that in the demos.
 
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karlo

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I don't get it. In the demo posted the boots are quite close in transition and then as the wedge forms they are much wider apart.

Hmm, yeah. So, part of the exam is MA, not just demonstrating a wedge Christie. And, looking at the video, I see the divergence of the feet. So, I would have called these turns Stem Christies, based on my understanding of the difference between WChr and SChr. The feet and skis seem to be pushed out to form a wedge.

Here's the video posted earlier in thread,

 

LiquidFeet

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Those are not stem christies in that video.

In a stem christie --the skier stands on the old outside ski -- moves the tail out of the new outside ski (thus the word "stem) -- and transfers weight to that ski -- so that it carries the skier around.

The stem christie involves two sequential rotary movements. Stem the outside ski, then rotate the inside ski to match it. The stem (moving the tail out) can be brushed or stepped. Some purists might care which you do, and require it to be brushed, because when you lift it then put it down to create a wedge turn entry, that's called a step turn. A by-the-book wedge christie, on the other hand, must involve simultaneous rotary movements, or at least they need to look like simultaneous rotary movements to an examiner during an exam.

Another significant difference between the two turns is the movment of the center of mass. In the stem christie, the body moves over the new outside ski to "weight" it so that it will dominate. In the wedge christie, the body moves towards the new inside ski so that it flattens and loses its edging. Those are opposite movements of the CoM, one to the outside of the new turn and one to the inside. In both, however, the movement is small, and the body's CoM stays inside the two feet.

The turning forces are different in the two turns. In the stem christie, it's the brushing of the weighted tail out that causes the turn. In the wedge christie, it's the release/flattening of the new inside ski that causes it to stop resisting the edged outside ski's power to make a turn.

The by-the-book description of these two turns may or may not match what people actually do in real skiing, for better or worse.
 
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LiquidFeet

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Karlo, you are right.
By-the-book wedge christies should not have the stance narrowing and widening.
The stance width should be stable. That's what I've always heard.

Honestly, this sounds so silly, doesn't it?
 
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karlo

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wedge christie, on the other hand, must involve simultaneous rotary movements, or at least they need to look like simultaneous rotary movements

Is that the strongest visual cue to distinguish SC from WC? Or, is there something else more telltale, one thing?
 

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So why is the wedge christie such deal-breaker in these certification exams?

Because how the candidate starts the turn, with skis parallel then wedged, reveals how the candidate will start parallel turns.

Since the skis start parallel and then become wedged during initiation of the new turn, the temptation is strong for the instructor to make that wedge happen by doing something with the new outside ski instead of doing something with the new inside ski. Don't do that!

If you start the wedge christie with a tail-push, or a tail-brush, or a weight transfer to that new outside ski, this probably means you are doing it in your parallel turns. It may even mean that you make rotary push-off turns in your personal skiing. This is a no-no for ski instructors, although the turn works just fine in easy groomer conditions. A rotary-push-off in your personal skiing will definitely fail you in your LII Skiing Exam.

If you demo a wedge christie with a tail-push, a tail-brush, or a weight transfer to the new outside ski in a lesson, and your students do it following in your footsteps, they will get functional turns. But... you are setting them up to make turns later with a rotary push-off. PSIA does not want you to be teaching that.

So what's wrong with a rotary push-off? I've written enough. Maybe someone else will chime in, or for even more fun maybe someone else will disagree. Whoo-hooOO!
 

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So what's wrong with a rotary push-off? I've written enough. Maybe someone else will chime in, or for even more fun maybe someone else will disagree. Whoo-hooOO!

I'll give it a shot:

1. It takes more muscular effort and is therefore fatiguing.

2. It tends to result in turns with kinks in them, which are less versatile.

3. It tends to take longer to develop and therefore isn't the favored way to start a turn when you need to turn right now.

4. It tends to result in you starting the new turn a little back seated, which has many negative consequences.

5. It's less aesthetically pleasing.

6. It doesn't feel as good.

7. It requires at least a slight pivoting of the skis at turn initiation, which works poorly in difficult snow such as crust or heavy crud.

8. It makes it difficult to develop early high edge angles through a smooth, progressive movement.

9. It results in a jerky initiation of ski rotation, tending to stall out.

10. It can result in a loss of pressure on the skis following the initial push.

11. Because the new outside ski leads the rotation into the new turn, it makes it more challenging to maintain a fully parallel stance and equal edge angles through turn initiation. (PMTS proponents understand the primacy of the new inside ski in accomplishing these movements.)

12. Summing up, it just doesn't result in as smooth and effotless a turn cycle.

I probably missed a bunch of stuff.

Though actually, throwing in the occasional stem may be useful in certain situations. Just another tool in the kit.
 

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If you start the wedge christie with a tail-push, or a tail-brush, or a weight transfer to that new outside ski, this probably means you are doing it in your parallel turns.
So what is wrong with weight transfer to the new outside ski?
 
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karlo

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So what is wrong with weight transfer to the new outside ski?

I'm not sure this is right, but in the context of a beginner skier, that weight transfer to the new outside ski, during tail push, is a projection of mass uphill, rather than downhill. So, any edging that happens results from inclination, not both inclination and angulation ???
 

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So what is wrong with weight transfer to the new outside ski?

The disallowed weight transfer is one in which the skier moves the whole body outward, towards the new outside ski, or over it. This movement of the whole body outwards to stand on the outside ski --- is a no-no -- in an exam. The movement of the body should be towards the inside of the new turn, closer to the new inside ski, because this is what advanced skiing requires. In a wedge christie, of course, the body stays between the skis; the movement is minimal.

But the outward movement of the whole body, as a unit, to stand on that outside ski, sure works in lower level turns and often instructors rely on it to get their beginner skiers to make their first successful turns.

This outward movement is different from a weight-transfer that happens in other ways. So it's not the weight transfer that's the problem, it's that one way that candidates might choose to use in an exam. I've just gone back and edited the post that Jamt quotes.
 
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Mike King

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One of the important aspects of skiing highlighted by the wedge christie (and the gliding wedge, for that matter), is the release of the old outside/new inside ski. Effective skiing requires getting that ski to release, thereby getting it out of the way of the new outside ski in the early part of the turn. So, it seems to me, the key to mastering this exam task is to focus on the release. Get the edge to release, and the rest of the turn will then be easy. You can then work on the wedge christie variations: matching before or after the fall line.

Mike
 

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I'm not an expert on this but I've done so well at the L2 exam, they insisted I come back several times to do them again :cool:, so I have a bit of experience.

This is what I learned and my takeaways, not just on the wedge and stem christies, but on taking the L2 exams as well. I read what I wrote a couple times and want to make sure that everyone understands my comments are made in general and not to any posters in this thread. Some great info has already been stated and I'm not pointing my comments at the OP or any other poster.

Don't confuse the L2 tasks with good skiing. Some of the tasks are to see if you have control of all your parts. Can you do something that is counter intuitive. Can you make your skis do what you want them to when you want them to and not just when they want to. The wedge and stem christies (WC & SC) highlight this. They are both turns, to the untrained observer are the same thing, BUT they are done entirely differently and for different applications.

The SC holds two values. 1) you need to know how to demo this so you can show a distressed skier how to get down terrain above their ability. I forget if I read that in the manual or an examiner told me that. 2) you need to be able to demo what not to do as well as what you should be doing so you can show a skier where they are going wrong. I've had a few coaches go through this process with me - "This is what your should do." followed by "This is what you are doing." ending with "This is what you should do."

Pushing the tail out on a SC, IIRC isn't correct. You have to step it out (lift the ski slightly) or slide it out but in either, the tail shouldn't be pushed out. The rotary should still be under foot and not the tip (pushing out the tail means to pivot point is the tip of the ski).

A WC is to show the ability to release the inside ski edge. I believe an examiner told me that all turns should start with the release of the inside ski. Aside from the SC, I believe all do. Yes there are exceptions and you can do them differently, and I'm sure on the World Cup they do it by wiggling their butts or something, but the L2 exam is about getting certified to teach intermediate skiers and not Mikaela Shiffrin.

I bring these things up because understanding the intent of the tasks helped me understand the importance of them and more importantly, how to do them correctly. Many of us to include myself refer to the tasks as "Stupid Human Tricks" but I say this as a term of endearment and I spend my weekends doing them while coaching U10s (the best job on the mountain BTW).

These tasks are important and at anytime you should be able to demo them and not just in an exam. I don't care for wedge turns but I still practice them. The tasks aren't picked because PSIA considers them your "ante" to get in the game. These are the things you need to have in your tool box and if the P in PSIA means anything to you, you'll continue to hone them.

Last season I had posted on epic that I spent a day teaching an adult friend how to ski. I never taught her how to do a WC. All I taught her on turning was to release the ski on the side she wanted to turn. A couple hours later she started doing "spontaneous" WC. It just happens in a natural progression.

If you lighten or release the inside ski, your weight has to go somewhere and the only place left is the outside ski, which of course is where you want it. You don't want to push this ski, but it needs pressure to turn. Its one of the 5 fundamentals:
  • Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski
Ken
 
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karlo

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Another excellent post. So many here!

to the untrained observer

Despite the disclaimer, that'd be me, in case there's any doubt. :)

all turns should start with the release of the inside ski. Aside from the SC, I believe all do.

This statement made me think. It's like walking. Do we initiate a turn with our inside foot, or outside foot. Yet, as we are turning, which foot is working against the inertia, to change our direction? The outside foot. Same with 1000 step drill, same with WC, same with railroad tracks. Just, with the WC, we haven't gotten yet to putting the inside ski on edge. So, in WC, we start a turn with a release of the inside ski, as we would start a turn, walking, by "releasing" and picking up our inside foot. Not sure this is right. Just thinking on paper (screen).

coaching U10s (the best job on the mountain BTW).

Yes! Working with kids is so rewarding. They learn so fast, and have so much fun doing it.
 

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