"We don't need ______ for women"

[Monique]

(Posting this in the general forum because it applies beyond bikes)

I read this and wanted to stand up and cheer.

http://singletrackworld.com/columns/2017/07/we-dont-need-bikes-for-women/

And I think every bit of it (except topsheets) applies to skis, too.

Let lighter or older or simply less strong men ski softer skis! Let burly women ski big skis! Stop marketing specific skis to men or women - instead market the sport and get people on the equipment from which they, personally, benefit most!

I know this has been discussed before, but I really like this op-ed.

 

[Philpug]

Very interesting topic, something we have discussed with skis and even boots. Not all women have athletic calves or lower center of gravities yet all err most womens specific gear is designed for that. Just as many men have the same or similar body physiques (other than the obvious differences). How much of the womens' gear is just superficial cosmetics and how much is actually better products for the application?

 

[Monique]

How much of the womens' gear is just superficial cosmetics and how much is actually better products for the application?

I think people would be better served if products listed characteristics rather than sex. "This ski is for lighter skiers" - regardless of gender. Etc. I mean, ski boots are already largely like this, with a ton of characteristics that only boot fitters can keep straight. Unfortunately, not nearly enough skiers go to boot fitters, and certainly wouldn't take the time to go through the same sort of process for skis ... so I dunno. Maybe it's a pipe dream simply because it's too hard to market complex combinations of characteristics?

 

[crgildart]

I'm putting my 90 pound 15 year old intermediate on womens skis next season... but with normal looking red and black topsheet. I skied women's length race skis when I was his size as well.

 

[scott43]

I can't speak intelligently about the ski industry, but bikes yes. They're absolutely correct. The common line that we always got from product reps was women have longer legs and shorter torsos. Which may be correct..sometimes..but often it's not. It's really about the individual. Some women have short legs too relative to torso. So what then? For the complete bicycle package you do what you do with male customers..you fit primarily to top tube length, secondary seat tube length and you iron out the details with handlebar stem length and height, crank length, seat height and seat setback. Done, end of story.

Part 2 of this story however, is gender-specific parts and I think there IS some truth to those items. Things like pubic bone width..which means wider sit bone saddles for women. I think that's a legit part, although not being female I can't verify this personally. They also had short-reach brake levers..presumably for smaller hands..although this is a problem for some men too. So I get some things..but frame geometry?? Not buying it.

And...I don't want to cause a headache here..but to put it plainly, women-specific may be a bit of marketing and maybe women buy into it to feel like they belong? Dunno.. Maybe that's a part of it.

 

[Monique]

@scott43 - hmm, maybe. I do use a women's saddle. Point in favor of one particular component, probably. Frankly, saddles are so individual that I think bikes should come without, just like pedals. I would call the saddles on all my demo bikes "ass hatchets", way too narrow for me. That includes the women's bike. I did not notice any issue with the shape of the men's saddle on my demo rides, other than width - but it likely matters more on road bikes.

Trek was huge into WSD when I started mountain biking. These days, nope, they're just mountain bikes. The Santa Cruz move with Juliana is interesting - they readily acknowledge the frames are identical, with different rear shocks, and it's all about branding. But why not just offer your choice of shocks when you buy the bike? There's definitely some marketing and branding going on.

Shock, cranks, things like that - I am completely baffled as to why they don't just offer the choice. Like my Yeti. I bought the "men's" for the shock, and then my shop had to swap cranks themselves. Is a male riding a size small necessarily going to want the same crank length as a male riding an XL?

Not to mention a crucial detail - resale is much easier with a unisex bike than a women's. While women are accustomed to buying stuff across the aisle, dog forbid a man ride a women's bike. And there just aren't that many women out there buying high end mountain bikes, when it comes down to it.

 

[Carl Kuck]

I had a pair of race stock Atomic LT-11M skis (180? 185? don't remember...) that were ostensibly women's race skis - those were a hoot! Not crazy stiff like the RaceTiger GS FIS skis that I had for a while, but fast and stable... Blue/white graphics too.

 

[pais alto]

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This might be the post that gets me kicked off of Pugski.

 

[fullStack]

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This might be the post that gets me kicked off of Pugski.

LOL! I was going to post the same thing...

I actually had a chairlift conversation last year with a lady (a total stranger) that gravitated to this subject, and had absolutely no idea what to say in response when she started talking about it. Luckily my wife was there to save me...

 

[JeffB]

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This might be the post that gets me kicked off of Pugski.

I've seen it in use - from the rear quarter, not the front. On a float trip fly fishing. Couple of boats, one lady and 3 guys. 2 male guides. One of the other guys started giving our female companion guff about it and both guides jumped in to say "at least she didn't dribble on the boat like you dumb jackasses."

 

[ScotsSkier]

so, if someone is non-binary gender which version do they choose??? And if i decide to self-identify as a different gender on a particular day do I have to change skis??

 

[Monique]

so, if someone is non-binary gender which version do they choose??? And if i decide to self-identify as a different gender on a particular day do I have to change skis??

That's why I used the term "sex," not "gender," in my second(?) post above. Gender has zero impact on bicycle geometry, although I suppose it might on color schemes. Then of course it gets interesting with hormone therapies administered to younger people so that their bodies do develop differently ... it's all pretty fascinating. And points me even more toward "choose a bike/ski based on the person, not what they mark on their driver's license."

 

[scott43]

Gender has zero impact on bicycle geometry, although I suppose it might on color schemes. And points me even more toward "choose a bike/ski based on the person, not what they mark on their driver's license."

Don't shoot the messenger..but..colour was a serious consideration for women. Like, I don't want it if it's not red or pink. I don't care if it's half price. I suspect that's not always the case but I did chuckle from time to time. Time has probably changed this attitude more and more though.

 

[SBrown]

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This might be the post that gets me kicked off of Pugski.

 

[fatbob]

While I'd agree that you don't need stuff labelled "for women" I'd suggest you do need stuff that is sized appropriately for the size, weight range etc that women have. In a parallel universe I'm sure someone is bitching about outdoor clothing and saying it's no good thinking that women are just small men they do need a different cut.

I think the pinkification of products is kinda ridiculous but what do I know, I'm not the target market. Neither are those women smart or tomboyish or whatever who prefer the unisex product.

If having women's models is the way you get a better range of size appropriate gear then I'm not sure I'd complain too much about it. Probably what you need to do is unite the sisterhood and agree that you all want Motorhead graphics on everything and while you're at it drag all those men who complained about said graphics to the same "toughen up buttercup" camp

 

[pais alto]

View attachment 27441

 

[Monique]

Don't shoot the messenger..but..colour was a serious consideration for women. Like, I don't want it if it's not red or pink. I don't care if it's half price. I suspect that's not always the case but I did chuckle from time to time. Time has probably changed this attitude more and more though.

And then there are women who wouldn't buy something pink in a million years. And lots who have swung around from one spectrum to the other. It's all a bit baffling. A couple of years ago, the Yeti SB5c Beti was massively pink, and I had a pretty major Hell No response. And again - on a practical level, it's harder to sell high end women's gear.

While I'd agree that you don't need stuff labelled "for women" I'd suggest you do need stuff that is sized appropriately for the size, weight range etc that women have. In a parallel universe I'm sure someone is bitching about outdoor clothing and saying it's no good thinking that women are just small men they do need a different cut.

That outdoor clothing thing has existed, and continues to exist. I'm thinking hockey chest protectors for women. Men's gear doesn't cut it. But equipment, I think, isn't the same as non form fitting gear (discuss)

I see your point, but as someone who does not match the general expectation that women are always light, I am inherently skeptical of all equipment made for women. Usually the main description is "for lighter skiers/riders/etc," which immediately annoys me, which is probably not the response they're going for. There are a lot of larger women out there, and some of them would like to be active, too, and have gear appropriate for them. I swear, of all the places I get the message that my body type is so inappropriate that we have to pretend it doesn't even exist, outdoor equipment is maybe the worst.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Love the color and splash of women's gear as it never deters me personally. One day a co-worker commented that he was not secure enough in his masculinity to wear a pink shirt like I had on. My wife hated the fact that she was forced to wear castoffs from her four brothers and she insists on women specific gear. I never told her that the Aura's that she loves is really the a men's Mantra ski with a girlie top sheet.

 

[ScotsSkier]

?

This might be the post that gets me kicked off of Pugski.

isn't it sexist it only comes in Pink???!!!

 

[Started at 53]

When it comes to sports equipment, only a fool would buy/use stuff that was gender specific as opposed to body/fitness/size/weight specific.

Mrs. 53 skis on men's skis, and stiff ones at that.