• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

WC base structures

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,540
Location
Breckenridge, CO
This is an image of the blanked bases I omitted before. Despite the quality of the photo, you can see the structure in the edge on the right edge about halfway down. That is eliminated during the base edging process. That illustrates how you can

Blanked - IMG_20200129_192008871.jpg

Blanked ski

Thumbprint - IMG_20200129_194648171.jpg

With the thumbprint. This is straight from the machine.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,411
Location
Denver, CO
That "thumbprint" pattern is what I got on a couple pairs of my skis early this season (done at Denver Sports Lab). However, they didn't leave the area next to the edge untouched. I'm bringing some skis in for grinds next week and I'm going to ask if they can reproduce that grind.

I also saw this type of pattern on most of the 2021 Head skis at the snow show. Seems that leaving the area of the base next to the edge smooth (and pretty much unstructured) is currently the preferred pattern.
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,540
Location
Breckenridge, CO
@BClipped , @Noodler , it is a margin structure which refers to the margin along the edges. The structure is the same width from tip to tail. Lots of race skis manufacturers have the thumbprint, which on race skis is always a margin version. My shopmate has developed a thumbprint that can be up to 150 mm wide but doesn't have a margin. It is cool to look at and quite effective. No pics yet. I put it on my K2 Pinnacle 88s, but the base is red white and blue and doesn't show the structure that well.

These symetric, as opposed to simple diagonal, patterns only use the middle of the stone so aren't as economical as diagonals; diagonals cover the entire stone surface and the machine oscillates the ski over the stone with every pass to fully utilize the entire surface. They are only possible with the advent of robotic stone grinders that can insure that the ski passes over the pattern in the same place every time.
 

Zrxman01

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Posts
409
Every time I see a thumb print structure it reminds me of this.
2E6260D9-18D4-4D41-A436-D481758ACFDF.jpeg
 

GlacierNovesia

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Jul 26, 2020
Posts
17
Location
Duesseldorf
I can put a structure in a ski from edge to edge then apply the base bevel, resulting in no structure in the edge and an edge to edge structure. Most speed skis have edge to edge structure and I'd wager a beer that not one of those edges (on the WC at least) has structure in them.

Well, you can verify this by use of simple trigonometrics. If you have a structure of 50 µm, how do you have to apply the base angle to polish the structure out of the edge? If you use a base angle of 1°, you will have 17 µm at the outer edge of the metal (I assume that for speed disciplines you will have an edge not thicker than 1mm, so tan(1°) * 1mm = 17 µm). Thats not enough, right? So you decide to grind into the base, as you can see in the photo of Travis Ganongs ski. For example one millimeter more. Then you get 35 µm. Or with the use of 1.5° you get 52 µm. Gotcha! With the use of a magnifier you may see structure in the edge, but maybe thats enough. And of course they use 1° or more in speed disciplines because it makes no fun when the edge bites into the snow at a speed level of 80 mp/h.

But Travis Ski has never seen a normal service robot. This structure can only applied with a precise world cup machine that has been prepared very carefully for this ski. It is almost impossible to achive such a result with a service robot that runs with a standard setup. And as far as I know they also use different structure depths. With a maximum in the middle of the base, and a finer and not so deep structure at the outer side.

And for short turns you have other requirements and preconditions. Less speed but aggressive short turns. World cup skiers frequently have 0° right under the binding. In this case you can not polish the structure out of the edge. So the structure must be applied as you can see in the photo of the first post.
 

GlacierNovesia

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Jul 26, 2020
Posts
17
Location
Duesseldorf
This is the structure on my GS skis. They had a really wonky tune (used skis) so I blanked them, applied the thumbprint structure and side bevel, then the base bevel, all with the Scout.

View attachment 91482
It also had a little scuffing on the base next to the edge.

This little scuffing is mandatory to polish the structure out of the base. It doesn't work without it. When I assume that the edge is ~2 mm thick, you have grind 2 millimeter into the base. For GS acceptable, but not for SL.
 

GlacierNovesia

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Jul 26, 2020
Posts
17
Location
Duesseldorf
Maybe this drawing helps to understand the geometric background:

BaseWithStructureMargin.png

For alpine ski we usually use structures with a depth between 20-80 µm. But a correct base bevel of 0.5° means that you file down the edge up to a maximum of 17 µm. So you would never be able to polish the edge if the structure doesn't stop before. That's the reason why we need a margin structure in that case when we want to use a small base angle. If we want to have a bigger base angle, we can apply the structure from edge to edge.

You will find a more detailled explanation here.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top