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Wax hotbox

Jeff_team FAST

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Hi all,

I've been considering making a ski wax hot box and I've reviewed the threads on here as well as other sites. I'm curious as to if there has been a change in thinking on hot boxing... Seems like it was very popular several years ago and now there is almost nothing about it. Was it a fad or was it just to much of a pain for most recreational skiers to do? It seems that getting good penetration of base prep wax on race skis early in the season makes a lot of sense, but it's also not that hard to do like 5 to 6 wax and cool cycles..

I'm looking at building a plywood box with a baseboard heater, heat shield / diffuser and thermocontroller with air circulation fan to keep temps around 150-155F. If anyone has an amazing design they think blows the doors off of what is already out there on the internets, please let me know.
 

Jacques

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Hi all,

I've been considering making a ski wax hot box and I've reviewed the threads on here as well as other sites. I'm curious as to if there has been a change in thinking on hot boxing... Seems like it was very popular several years ago and now there is almost nothing about it. Was it a fad or was it just to much of a pain for most recreational skiers to do? It seems that getting good penetration of base prep wax on race skis early in the season makes a lot of sense, but it's also not that hard to do like 5 to 6 wax and cool cycles..

I'm looking at building a plywood box with a baseboard heater, heat shield / diffuser and thermocontroller with air circulation fan to keep temps around 150-155F. If anyone has an amazing design they think blows the doors off of what is already out there on the internets, please let me know.

I've been using mine for several years now. For soft base prep. wax 140F is plenty hot.
It's super duper for initial base prep.
After that, just keep up with normal iron waxing and you will be golden.
I have had skis brought back to me after 20 plus day on them and zero base burn.
I use Dominator Base Renew for first wax base prep,
A heat controller is the only way to go.
Good luck!
 
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Jeff_team FAST

Jeff_team FAST

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Thank you.

What are your thoughts about using ceramic heating bulbs (say 4) with a fan and thermocontroller vs. a baseboard heater?
like these https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Delux...25?qid=1572295765&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-25&th=1

My concern is that the heat lamps may create hot spots while the heater I'm seeing have a thermostat that turns it off / interfere with the thermocontroller.

I'm thinking that if I make the box and use the heat lamps (4 spaced evenly) with a fan and connected to the thermocontroller I might get better control of the heat.

I'm also curious as to your thoughts regarding insulating the box. I feel like maybe 1/2 inch plywood with a foil insulation would be sufficient.

Thanks again.
 

Jacques

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Thank you.

What are your thoughts about using ceramic heating bulbs (say 4) with a fan and thermocontroller vs. a baseboard heater?
like these https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Delux...25?qid=1572295765&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-25&th=1

My concern is that the heat lamps may create hot spots while the heater I'm seeing have a thermostat that turns it off / interfere with the thermocontroller.

I'm thinking that if I make the box and use the heat lamps (4 spaced evenly) with a fan and connected to the thermocontroller I might get better control of the heat.

I'm also curious as to your thoughts regarding insulating the box. I feel like maybe 1/2 inch plywood with a foil insulation would be sufficient.

Thanks again.

I gutted an infrared toaster oven 1500 Watt. So it is hollow. Fans front and rear to push air through like a tunnel. More fans inside too. Air goes in a circle.
Thermocoupler is just in front of the oven fans. It controls when the elements turn on and off. Box is 1/2 inch ply. Insulation is an aluminum bubble wrap. Two layers.

IMG_5768.JPG
IMG_5769.JPG
 

Primoz

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Seems like it was very popular several years ago and now there is almost nothing about it. Was it a fad or was it just to much of a pain for most recreational skiers to do?
For recreational skiers, they were always too much of a pain to handle it, not to mention too expensive if you didn't do it yourself. For racing, they were popular some 20+ years ago, but after few years, when everyone and their dogs did skis in hotboxes, we all realized they make more damage then good for skis. Even though they are operated at relatively low temperatures (60-80c) skis are exposed to these temperatures for hours, which on the end pretty much destroys ski. Yes Jacques I know your skis are still fine after years of being hotboxed, but here I'm talking about top performance skis, where sometimes even 0.01sec difference matters. That's basically main reason why noone (in racing) is using this anymore. There are few other options nowadays (mainly automated IR heaters), but majority of servicemen on WC are back to normal iron for new skis preparation (for daily training/race waxes, iron was always the only tool anyway, even in time of hotboxes).
 

chilehed

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I thought about it, but it was cheaper (and a lot more therapeutic) for me to do it by hand. I load them up, leave 'em in the clamps and pop down there two or three times a day for another heat cycle. No scraping.
 

Jacques

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For recreational skiers, they were always too much of a pain to handle it, not to mention too expensive if you didn't do it yourself. For racing, they were popular some 20+ years ago, but after few years, when everyone and their dogs did skis in hotboxes, we all realized they make more damage then good for skis. Even though they are operated at relatively low temperatures (60-80c) skis are exposed to these temperatures for hours, which on the end pretty much destroys ski. Yes Jacques I know your skis are still fine after years of being hotboxed, but here I'm talking about top performance skis, where sometimes even 0.01sec difference matters. That's basically main reason why noone (in racing) is using this anymore. There are few other options nowadays (mainly automated IR heaters), but majority of servicemen on WC are back to normal iron for new skis preparation (for daily training/race waxes, iron was always the only tool anyway, even in time of hotboxes).

I'll respect your statement Primoz, but I still use for base prep. After that I just use an Iron. Then I might use again on an annual basis, or after lots of flattening with steel, or after a stone grind.
 

Muleski

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About 20 years ago, we sold one ski house and bought another. I had built a hot box in the older home, 35 years ago. Was mounted on the wall of our tuning room. Could handle three pairs at a time. I had messed around with a lot of hearing sources and thermostats before I got it reasonably right.

This was at about the time when hotboxing was some secret sauce being used by race techs. Yeah...it was sort of cool, but I was never really convinced that it was a better tool.

We bought the next house and had a lot of room to build out a ski/tuning room. I built another box, this time a bigger one. It was the base of the bigggest of our three benches. This one was heated by two ceramic disc heaters, had four fans in it, a very accurate thermostat with digital readouts, a timer. Viewing windows, lights inside. It worked. And it could handle nine pairs at once. Fit DH boards.

The fall after we had finished the ski room, I had to pick up some skis at what was a pretty serious US race room for one of the ski companies. Not as big a setup as I had seen in Europe, but still big and well equipped.

One of the first things that I noticed was that they had about 4-5 hot boxes in there. The doors had been removed from all but one. And they were all being used for storage! A couple were packed with wax. One was packed with binding lift kits and screws, etc. The one with the door on it had a hasp and padlock...additives and the expensive stuff.

I asked the guy who ran the operation, who was European, about the hot boxes, and was told that their techs no longer used them. Anywhere. Had all come to the conclusion that with the latest waxes, and irons, they got better results by hand. And no damage. Over the course of the winter, talking to a number of guys teching on the WC, and some race room managers, I realized that was the case with all of them.

No doubt a hot box can be efficient in terms of time. You can hot box a lot more skis in the same time...and they are just cooking away. I have a couple of friends who will “sell” new ski set-up, including five or more “wax cycles.” It’s good business for their shops. They divthrir kids race skis by hand.

I agree with @Primoz . It’s not foolproof, you can damage a priceless pair of race skis, and I hear the general consensus is that in terms of the ultimate test...the speed...skis that have been conditioned by hand are likely a tiny bit faster. All it takes are a few “hundies.”

Now if you have a LOT of skis to do, and you’re not dealing with truly elite athletes, a couple of hot boxes can be a huge help. By a lot, a mean dozens, maybe hundreds. The biggest “hot box” that I have seen is a full walk in room. They can handle well over 100 pairs at once. Maybe 200? Huge club.

One of my children coaches a pretty “elite” group. Eight kids. 60-80 new pairs of skis, maybe more, before summer skiing starts. All done hand by the techs. Hot box unplugged.

I would not build another. Our ski room has a nice industrial ventilator, good waxing set ups, nice irons. Racks to cool skis. Seems to yield good results. A lot of it sits idle with kids not living in this part of the country these days.

I believe that the ski box was really used about 3-4 times! Great for storage, abd a rock solid base to the bench!

Just my $.02.
 

Swiss Toni

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Hot boxing skis is a bad idea. I don’t think anybody has hot boxed a racing ski here for at least 10 years. Most people here still use irons, a few use home made infrared waxers and most of the serious shops use a variation of the Bolt Wax Future http://www.bolt-wax-future.com/index.html

Infrared radiation is widely used to heat plastic sheets for thermoforming, it is much more efficient than either conduction or convection heating. Polyethylene readily absorbs infrared radiation.


As long as you are prepared to traverse it manually, building an infrared waxer is pretty straight forward. Most of the components required are readily available, lamps, lamp holders and reflectors are listed in the Dr. Fischer Infrared Halogen Lamps catalog https://www.dr-fischer-group.com/en/downloads/catalogue-downloads/ The white metal box that Montana Wax Future used is available from Rittal https://www.rittal.com/com-en/product/list.action?categoryPath=/PG0001/PG0002SCHRANK1/PG0003SCHRANK1 A length of steel cable raceway is ideal for mounting the lamp / lamps in and there are any number of designs for DIY linear slides on the internet.

Alternatively, you could just use an off the shelf halogen infrared heater like this guy has (2:23)

 
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Doug Briggs

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I wish I'd taken a picture, but a friend showed me a pair of Atomic speed skis that he had hot-boxed. They were flat, flat, flat. Not a hint of camber, tip or tail. He had done numerous skis in the hot box prior to this debacle. YMMV. Caveat Emptor. Not for me.
 

Doug Briggs

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While we are on the subject of improving ski glide, what are techs' experience and opinion on the 'scotch bright' belt in a belt sander for accelerating the wax/ski cycles post base grind? @Primoz ? @Muleski ? @ScotsSkier ?
 

Scrundy

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A buddy of mine who built longbows built himself a hot box out of plywood. Thermostat, timer, fan, and used 4 - 100 watt light bulbs to heat it to same temps . I would think this would be the cheapest way to go. Easy peasy
 

Jacques

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I wish I'd taken a picture, but a friend showed me a pair of Atomic speed skis that he had hot-boxed. They were flat, flat, flat. Not a hint of camber, tip or tail. He had done numerous skis in the hot box prior to this debacle. YMMV. Caveat Emptor. Not for me.

Hmmmm, I have never noticed any skis loosing camber. Then again I don't think I have boxed too many super old skis. Old skis yes.
Could it be the heat was way too high, like really high?
I have some pairs I have boxed for hours several cycles. Heat cool, heat cool over and over many, many times and never noticed any change in the skis.
 

Doug Briggs

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Hmmmm, I have never noticed any skis loosing camber. Then again I don't think I have boxed too many super old skis. Old skis yes.
Could it be the heat was way too high, like really high?
I have some pairs I have boxed for hours several cycles. Heat cool, heat cool over and over many, many times and never noticed any change in the skis.
He swears it was appropriate temperature; he'd done lots of skis in the same box before. It was a while ago and I don't have contact with the guy anymore so I can't follow up. He did seem to know what he was doing. It was a very sad sight.
 

Primoz

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I wish I'd taken a picture, but a friend showed me a pair of Atomic speed skis that he had hot-boxed. They were flat, flat, flat. Not a hint of camber, tip or tail. He had done numerous skis in the hot box prior to this debacle. YMMV. Caveat Emptor. Not for me.
This probably didn't happen due single hotboxing unless it went seriously wrong, but yeah... heating skis for hours at 60-80 degrees does exactly that. It might not make it totally flat, but flex certainly changes, and out of great race ski you get soup noddle. This is main reason why after initial hype, everyone on WC moved away from hotboxes. I mean hotboxes are really great, and they make work, especially initial preparation of new skis, when you have to prepare 30 or 40 pairs of ski at once, so much easier, but its side effects (changing flex, making ski soft(er)...) are just too much to be useful.

While we are on the subject of improving ski glide, what are techs' experience and opinion on the 'scotch bright' belt in a belt sander for accelerating the wax/ski cycles post base grind? @Primoz ? @Muleski ? @ScotsSkier ?
Personally... I would never ever touch ski base with sand paper, except for classic xc skis, where you sand kick wax zone, either for kick (instead of wax in certain conditions), or for kick wax to stay longer on ski. But for glide zones (on alpine skis that's base from tip to tail), I would never come even close to ptex with sand paper. It's best way to make ski slow, no matter how fine sand paper is.
 

Jacques

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heating skis for hours at 60-80 degrees does exactly that.

80c is 176F. I would never go that high. Ruin a ski for sure. 60c is 140F. 140F has not ruined any skis for me anyway that I can perceive.
I have gone as high a 155 in the past, but usually don't go over 145 these days.
My box heats up slowly, and cooling takes several hours.

Seems to me an iron at 300F and over could do some major damage though. I never iron above about 230F ever. No matter how hard the wax.
 

Primoz

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Difference between iron at 180c (for fluor overlays, for normal waxes it's between 120 and 140c) and hotbox at 60c is time. With iron, especially once doing fluoro overlays at 180c, you have single, fast pass. You heat up wax, and ptex, but there's no way heat would penetrate ski core (all layers of wood, carbon, metal and glue) in such short time. If it does, you are doing it seriously wrong. With hotbox on the other side. it does, and even if it's "only" 60c, it changes materials, as they are simply not made to be heated this much. Even though you might didn't notice this, performance of skis do change once you have them at 60c for several hours, even more if you keep repeating this.
 

Jacques

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Difference between iron at 180c (for fluor overlays, for normal waxes it's between 120 and 140c) and hotbox at 60c is time. With iron, especially once doing fluoro overlays at 180c, you have single, fast pass. You heat up wax, and ptex, but there's no way heat would penetrate ski core (all layers of wood, carbon, metal and glue) in such short time. If it does, you are doing it seriously wrong. With hotbox on the other side. it does, and even if it's "only" 60c, it changes materials, as they are simply not made to be heated this much. Even though you might didn't notice this, performance of skis do change once you have them at 60c for several hours, even more if you keep repeating this.

I'll keep this in mind, but these days I use the box mostly just for an initial base prep. Around 140 to 145F.
I never use any racing fluorocarbon's, so I never need to iron that hot.
Sometimes I use an overlay that is a rub on, so no worries there.
I really don't think doing an annual boxing at 140F or so is going to kill any skis.
I know for XC skis that camber and pop from that is a big deal, but I don't do work on skate skis like you have, or still do. I am all alpine.
I really don't see getting to paranoid over hot boxing some alpine skis once in a while.
Like I said before, pairs I have done that have come back to me, after being way overdue for wax, still had no base burn at all.
Pairs that had not been boxed showed dry and burnt bases in the typical places.

As for me I will continue my boxing for base prep of skis, I just don't over do it.

I have boxed many skis for others and never heard anyone say their skis were now softer or had "lost" any camber or pop.
Maybe we are all delusional.
 

Muleski

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I've seen one guy use the ScotchBright belt {similar to FibreTex} on a belt sander, and it just scares me. He swears by it, does a lot of race skis, particularly speed skis with it. {And to clarify things, it's not sand paper.} Not for me.

In my hot boxing experience, I did always kept the heat on the low side, more like 140F. I have ruined two pairs of skis, both "experienced" DH skis. Exactly as @Doug Briggs and @Primoz described. Lost all of their camber, and were very much noodles. Done, just "shot." I suspect it has something to do with all of the metal in them. A shame as previous to that they were really two good fast pairs. WC experienced skis.

I certainly understand the time savings. In the early fall, the rush to get hundreds of pairs of new skis prepped by some, makes hotboxing seem like a great idea based on time alone. If I had a load of skis for pretty average juniors, etc. to do, a bunch of recreational skis, and ran a shop, I would absolutely consider doing it.

But as @Primoz sees first hand, the guys doing this for the best simply abandoned the hot box a while ago. As I mentioned above, we have a couple of family members coaching some pretty exceptional athletes and none of their skis have or are going near a box. The common race directors are out of that process.

BTW, somebody mentioned heating with light bulbs. I have friend who built a box that looked like fine furniture. Beautiful. His plan was to use light bulbs as his heat source. I think maybe five in a row. He had obtained some advice about the dimensions of the box, fans to use. the thermostat, and wattage of the bulbs. I believe that he found that the recommended bulbs would not generate enough heat. So, he increased the wattage. And they brought it up to the 150 range before the thermostat turned them off. Problem was that he never gave it a practice run with some beat up, dumpster worthy skis. He stuck in some very good race skis, and completely ruined the bases of one ski of each pair, where they were evidently too close to too hot a bulb. Like burning a pizza in the oven. The fans did nothing, the bulbs were too hot, and too close to the bases. So, he got two pairs of sacrificial practice skis.

If anybody wants to do this, My advice would be to use a heat source that "works". As even a temp as possible, throughout the box.
 

Doug Briggs

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Personally... I would never ever touch ski base with sand paper, except for classic xc skis, where you sand kick wax zone, either for kick (instead of wax in certain conditions), or for kick wax to stay longer on ski. But for glide zones (on alpine skis that's base from tip to tail), I would never come even close to ptex with sand paper. It's best way to make ski slow, no matter how fine sand paper is.
Not sand paper, but a scotch brite belt. The green Scotch-brand plastic stuff that is like fibertex. They make a belt of it that runs on belt sanders instead of the abrasive grit belt. I presume you've not used a scotch brite belt. ;)
 

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