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skibob

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several random thoughts that might not relate directly to each other.

First, VR comes absolutely, positively nowhere on the same planet with "antitrust" as it exists in the US currently. Which is to say, it pretty much disappeared in the 80/90s and just doesn't really exist at all any more. But when it comes to "industry dominance" VR isn't even noteworthy compared to many, many industries. Even if you limit to Colorado. I know it might feel totally different, but on objective standards, this is the case. So nobody should hold their breath . . .

Second, VR seems ripe for unionization. I'm not generally a fan of modern unions (then again, I pay all of my employees above market rate already). But they have the advantage that this can't be outsourced overseas. Still, I don't think unionization would succeed in securing a hefty hike quickly.

If you look at this as a pure supply/demand labor market, VR could go on like this indefinitely. However, given a high supply, unionization would increase the overall quality (which is generally high anyway).

VR could raise rates, but I think they are near the declining returns apex anyway. One could argue its time to accept declining margins in order to maintain price/volume ratios. `

A quick perusal of their financials says they have pretty good margins. But they also need to hedge against economic and weather activity which requires some padding.
 
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skibob

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@skibob because I work year round I've never used a pass for the summer discount. Have you? How much does it do for you? Just curious.
With my winter pass (for the coming winter), I get free gondola access in the summer. That is the main perk. So hiking is essentially free. For biking, they deduct the usual cost of the gondola from the cost of a day bike pass. That is $20? $40? I can't remember, but whatever it costs somebody to walk up and buy a gondola pass. It also gets discounts on bike rental and a summer season pass. I can't remember how much. Its not substantial. Maybe comes to 10-20%.
 

Tricia

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RE: pay structure example
I have been bootfitting and create a tremendous amount of foot traffic for a VR company for the past 4 seasons. Every year our shop sends 2 employees for further training for bootfitting, but I've never been included in that and have pursued further bootfitting education on my own. (I'm not complaining about this, just explaining)
Going into my 4th season at this VR company, I received a pay raise that brings me to the rate of a beginning bootfitter at other shops in the area. When I was hired, I was promised room for growth in the industry but I've hit the ceiling unless I want to move into a management position. I want to be a world class bootfitter, not a manger. I have seemingly hit the ceiling of where I can go in this shop.
This example is only posted for this reason - If I want to pursue my goals I will (likely) need to leave a VR company or move to Colorado where Greg Hoffman or Jack Rafferty run the boot fitting area for their shops as contractors (not employees) for VR shops.
There is a problem with this picture if you're a company that touts being innovative.
 

tromano

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To the extent you own the leasing rights to operate on that land, I would expect you can ban private enterprises from operating under your lease. If we think about this in a non-skiing context, when does somebody ever lease property and then allow competitors to set up tent on that property and then take revenue?

These leases are presumably nothing more than commercial contracts, and I think you'd be a bit insane to not have exclusivity provisions in those agreements as a resort operator. The question of good/bad for the consumer, etc., is in that light really more of an outcome of the process of leasing land for a certain operation.

The question of Vail's influence on the skiing world is to me a demonstration of how vastly superior a well run public corporation is to a wealthy individual or family in terms of developing, implementing, and sustaining a long term market strategy. Outside of anti-trust considerations, it does largely look like a shooting fish in a barrel affair at this point.

I would also note that Vail's strategy is not really skiing at this point. It is four season resort development, and the key properties they are acquiring have one of two features: 1) an established real estate base with on resort amenities (e.g. Park City, Whistler) or 2) a destination tourism population base (e.g. Perisher) that will now travel to a Vail resort on the Epic Pass instead of elsewhere.

I think that a year round Epic Pass is coming very soon. That's your skiing, mountain biking, on mountain adventure centers with ziplines, bungee, etc. all on one pass. The potential market share gain in pulling summer vacation dollars has to far exceed trying to grow skier dollars. This is probably the master strategy for the Epic Pass, because it makes two entirely unrelated seasons very economically sticky.

I may ski on the front range, but I can go to Whistler in summer on my Epic Pass now?

If a second concession were granted then the second operation would be allowed by the owner under that second agreement.

There are instances of multiple concessions being granted to operate in the same area, e.g. two guide companies that operate on a single river, numerous films have been shot in monument valley, that sort of thing. Also, time sharing is a thing as well. E.g. summer and winter. I dont know the details of agreements between resorts and usfs. It's not clear if existing resorts have an exclusive agreement or not. I do think the idea of multiple concessions for the same resort area is a bad one as even if current agreements are not exclusive. It seems to open up numerous questions for resolving conflicts that have not been addressed. I don't think that usfs wants to settle disputes between a resort and a third party ski school.
 

skibob

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RE: pay structure example
I have been bootfitting and create a tremendous amount of foot traffic for a VR company for the past 4 seasons.
I see what you did there. Nice.

In all seriousness, it seems like part of the issue, based on previous posts, is related to poor management in this particular instance.
 

Tricia

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I see what you did there. Nice.

In all seriousness, it seems like part of the issue, based on previous posts, is related to poor management in this particular instance.
To some extent, maybe.
But local management seems to be trying to make a change but it hits a ceiling and drops to the floor when it gets a couple tiers up.
In the end I wonder if VR as a corporation is looking at the bottom line for their shareholders (it is a publicly traded company) and does what it can for the bottom line while losing touch with the reason it got their in the first place.

How long can a company like this give its guests the experience of a life time when the employees on the front line are paid at the lowest common denominator?
 
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michael

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How long can a company like this give its guests the experience of a life time when the employees on the front line are paid at the lowest common denominator?

So long as folks are willing to take a position at whatever amount is being offered. I think this issue has two sides: 0. companies (not just in the ski industry) are looking to pay nothing (or less), and 1. people are taking these positions even though it is not economically sound in the long run for them. Lots of folks, myself included, like to rail on industry practices, but so long as there is a pool of people willing to do stuff for a pittance, this will continue. And companies would be dumb not to leverage that fact.
 

Jed Peters

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I can only speak as a CONSUMER and not an employee, etc.

I've been involved in a Vail Resorts ski program for my kids for the last couple of years, and have been an epic pass holder for the same amount of time.

Some things I've noticed vs Squaw/Alpine, where I also have a pass, and vs when I was skiing at Kirkwood in the 2000's pre-Vail ownership.

1. The season pass price cut has been awesome. I can afford to buy a pass for everyone in the family, and I think that last year we paid like 18 bucks a day average for all 4 members of the family.

2. The ski schools at the different resorts are: 1. Overpriced and 2. Differ between Vail Resorts. Example--Heavenly ski school, for kids, sucks. I mean, it's disorganized, the kids don't get to ski a lot, and the coaching (in general) is crappy. It's NOT a good program. Kirkwood, the school is less expensive, and the coaching better--overall--and better accessible terrain for the kids. 3. Northstar is the most expensive, and the best. Best instructors, best learning areas, best run program--hands down.

3. At all three of the resorts, you feel like you're a number, plain and simple. It doesn't feel like you're just off having a ski day, like the feeling you get at a Homewood, Sierra at Tahoe, Alta, or even Deer Valley. You feel like you're mass transit cattle.

4. Food prices are absolutely an abomination. I mean, when you're willing to go to a sit down meal at a Ritz Carlton slope side over choices in the cafeteria because it's CHEAPER? Come on.

5. The Vail "shops" such as True North, Heavenly Mountain Sports, etc. are corporate, and seem to have the items that are popular. Trish and Phil can attest--my family collectively has spent a little bit of dough in the Vail Resorts system the last couple years. That said, for a lot of specialty items--we look elsewhere. Prices are generally MSRP and competitive, which is what I expect to pay mid-season anywhere. No complaints about the stores or the Customer Service in those stores. I'm sure that Vail's buying power with all their companies really helps bring in good product.

6. SquawAlpine, right down the road from Northstar, seems to run A LOT better than Heavenly or Kirkwood. Lift system, food and beverage, and attitude makes you feel like you're "a part of the mountain" rather than just being transported to and fro. The shops at squaw are better than Northstar and Heavenly's.

It comes down to this--if I'm skiing by myself or with my daughter (who's pretty damn good for 7) and free skiing, I'm picking Squaw all day. If I am staying with my entire family on a "ski vacation" I'm picking Northstar.
 

skibob

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To some extent, maybe.
But local management seems to be trying to make a change but it hits a ceiling and drops to the floor when it gets a couple tiers up.
In the end I wonder if VR as a corporation is looking at the bottom line for their shareholders (it is a publicly traded company) and does what it can for the bottom line while losing touch with the reason it got their in the first place.

How long can a company like this give its guests the experience of a life time when the employees on the front line are paid at the lowest common denominator?
Its a great question. Michael's answer is right at least to the extent that there are a lot of people out there with an appropriate level of expertise in things like bootfitting, instructors, lift operations, etc. In that situation, poorly paid employees are replaceable.

The problem comes when everybody is bummed out all the time because they make lousy money, don't have job security, etc. Poorly paid employees MIGHT have all the requisite expertise. But you also need them to have a great attitude. This latter, I've found highly variable at N*. Often great attitudes. Sometime indifferent. Occasionally downright lousy. I guess that is true most places, but, for example, at Sugar Bowl I can't remember encountering anybody that didn't seem like they had had 10 cups of coffee that day.
 

Tricia

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I can only speak as a CONSUMER and not an employee, etc.
<snip>

It comes down to this--if I'm skiing by myself or with my daughter (who's pretty damn good for 7) and free skiing, I'm picking Squaw all day. If I am staying with my entire family on a "ski vacation" I'm picking Northstar.
If Squaw/Alpine continues to make their improvements, you may make them your home mountain and leave the epic pass in the dust.
 

Jed Peters

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If Squaw/Alpine continues to make their improvements, you may make them your home mountain and leave the epic pass in the dust.

Not when one is 1:15 from the crib and one's 20 minutes and staring at me out the back porch....
 

michael

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The problem comes when everybody is bummed out all the time because they make lousy money, don't have job security, etc. Poorly paid employees MIGHT have all the requisite expertise. But you also need them to have a great attitude.

One of the most mindblowing things I encountered last year at PCMR was the attitude of VR employees. Always a smile and a "Hello!" or a fistbump or sumpin'. And I have nothing but respect for every one of 'em for that - I work from home doing a job I love and don't have that amount of sustained enthusiasm. Sure, by season's end you could tell some folks were just plain worn out, but who wouldn't be at that point.

I think one issue is that so much stuff is viewed as a commodity these days. Bootfitters, for example, may be a commodity from the pov of ease of finding another, but what they know and do is a skill. And for the good ones, it's an art. Ski instructors... same thing - a good teacher is not a commodity. I'm not advocating unionizing, necessarily, but if folks worked together and said "hey, we add value - value that cannot be replaced easily if we all walk or decide to take the season off, so let's sit down and chat about equity" then maybe a dialog could start. But this relies on everyone sticking to their principles which is easy for me to type about, but harder to do when you have real life expenses.
 

Philpug

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One of the most mindblowing things I encountered last year at PCMR was the attitude of VR employees. Always a smile and a "Hello!" or a fistbump or sumpin'. And I have nothing but respect for every one of 'em for that - I work from home doing a job I love and don't have that amount of sustained enthusiasm. Sure, by season's end you could tell some folks were just plain worn out, but who wouldn't be at that point.

That right there is the influence of Bill Rock, no if's and but's. I know there are Vail people reading this thread and some from the new Whistler acquisition. I will tell you, Bill Rock should be your model on hwo to treat customers and employees. I know the Park City naming was an cluster mess, seeing how that was handled and knowing how Bill operates, I cannot image that did not come from Broomfield and not him but he stood in the front like a man and fell on the sword.
 
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Monique

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I think that a year round Epic Pass is coming very soon. That's your skiing, mountain biking, on mountain adventure centers with ziplines, bungee, etc. all on one pass.

I have been hoping for this, from Winter Park or from epic pass. I would ride Keystone a lot more if I could get a year round pass.

On the other hand - Keystone has a pretty nice discount on a biking lift ticket if you have an epic pass. Winter Park / Trestle only gives you a discount on a biking season pass; no lift ticket discount. For the amount I actually ride lift-serviced, Keystone is the better deal.
 

Monique

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So question. I have not listened to the whole video, but I believe the range of pay described for a private lesson is off. I swear that someone with very high credentials (examiner) working at Breck told me at some point that an instructor could be paid $45/hour. Maybe I just totally misheard. Maybe this includes the fact that instructors get a pay bump (I think) for a return private. Obviously most instructors are not examiners, but if I'm anywhere close, there *are* instructors being paid a lot more than the guy at the start of the video suggests with his range.
 

Jed Peters

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So question. I have not listened to the whole video, but I believe the range of pay described for a private lesson is off. I swear that someone with very high credentials (examiner) working at Breck told me at some point that an instructor could be paid $45/hour. Maybe I just totally misheard. Maybe this includes the fact that instructors get a pay bump (I think) for a return private. Obviously most instructors are not examiners, but if I'm anywhere close, there *are* instructors being paid a lot more than the guy at the start of the video suggests with his range.


High level instructor makes $25/hour when actually teaching lesson....say minimum wage when they're between lessons (certain states require payment even when not working). Add another $20 bucks an hour when you're on a request...there's your $45.

But remember, that doesn't happen very often AT ALL. We're talking MAYBE 10 instructors at the "mega" resorts that get that kind of credo. For your average every day Joe or Jane--well, it's a labor of love.
 

Monique

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But remember, that doesn't happen very often AT ALL. We're talking MAYBE 10 instructors at the "mega" resorts that get that kind of credo. For your average every day Joe or Jane--well, it's a labor of love.

No doubt it's a small number of instructors. But I'm an engineer. I crave data. When someone presents data inaccurately, like misstating the upper level of a pay scale, it makes me suspicious. I would be perfectly happy with "The vast majority of of ski instructors never make more than $X a day, while a private lesson costs students $850, and a 6 person lesson nets the resort over $1k."

And to *me*, knowing that a certain pay range is possible does make a difference. Even if it's a small fraction of ski instructors, it's something to aspire to.

I still am 100% convinced that instructors are underpaid - even those elite few we're discussing. I just don't like it when people misrepresent facts to make their point. *You* didn't do that, but the guy in the video did.
 
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fatbob

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So we're turning into a thread about instructor pay again. Yeah the model just about everywhere sucks - doesn't stop the independently funded from doing the gig for beer money everywhere so it will never be resolved unti you drive all those people out of the market.

Re Vail sucks - well it does and it doesn't. The gouging on anciliaries sucks from the car park to the $10 beers but if you're smart you can brownbag a whole lot of skiing at tiny marginal cost & because they are VR work out tactics to avoid the tourist masses. But to be honest I've never been blown away by how much cheaper any MCP resort was for food (ski patrol $1 sodas at Kirkwood pre VR used to be nice though - even if Cohee sucked;). Last places I skied in N america where I thought food was reasonable were Baker & WH2O
 

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