Colorado Vail Resorts false advertising

[crgildart]

I'm not a lawyer either, but I suspect they could fall back on the fact that there was no purchase of "passes with kids ski free". The passes are a completely separate purchase from their point of view. The "kids ski free" comes with the room, which can be refunded.

I agree with you. If they don’t honor the kids ski free I will ask for a refund on our epic passes because they were purchased specifically for this trip and they backed out on our deal but I’m sure they have no obligation to refund them. It would be good customer service if they did but very unlikely.

Gotta wonder how many families will just show up having made the same purchases under the same understanding. End of the day, it's still a contract between Vail lodging that kids ski free as long as that was posted when payment was made for the offer.

Easier to just walk away if Vail refunds both the passes and the lodging.. which they should because ultimately it's VAIL over both products at the top.

Folks who show up and demand the free kid skiing and don't get it might also sue to recover airfare and other travel expenses lost due to Vail not honoring the agreement.

All this because for whatever reason they aren't removing the offer.

 

[crgildart]

How do you arrive at the page promising free skiing for kids 12 and under?

Off the Keystone page you can get here:

Vacation Deals | Keystone Ski Resort

Get more out of your Ultimate Adventure at Keystone with our money-saving Vacation Deals. Enjoy all the Resort has to offer with our best available rates.

www.keystoneresort.com

There's no mention to a "kids ski free" promotion.

If I do a google search for "keystone kids play for free" I do not see a link for the promotion. Obviously the webpage exists and you can get there if you know the exact url, but I am not seeing how you can get there off the Keystone web page or through google search.

Did they fix this recently, or has this been the case for a while now?

See below

They advertised that promotion "Kids Ski Free With Lodging", so you have good reason to be upset. https://www.keystoneresort.com/plan-your-trip/stay/play-for-free.aspx
I would take a screenshot of that page and document it just in case it is removed.

I don’t work in ski area operations so I can’t comment on the craziness that Vail et.al. may be experiencing right now with all the changes they need to manage. I’m sure it’s challenging.

But as of right now, Friday Sept 18, 2 days after the OP’s phone call with Keystone about the kids ski free program, that advertisement is still up on their site. If Keystone is considering removing that perk, then there is no excuse for not removing It from their website. Or at least adding a disclaimer. That’s easy enough to do.

Perhaps check other ski resorts for similar programs as an alternative. Some may be on your Epic passes. Here is one link dated Sept 7, 2020, and interestingly, Keystone’s program is on there:

Kids ski free: Save on your family's next ski vacation - The Points Guy

Ski lift tickets can be very expensive, so when skiing with a family, look for places where kids ski free.

thepointsguy.com

Would it be more financially viable to cancel your reservations with Keystone and do the Airbnb option while still skiing at Keystone?

I just think Keystone, no matter how chaotic things may be, should at least provide you with a solution now, AND update their website.

automatically added to qualifying stays
KIDS SKI FREE
You get the little ones out the door, we’ll get them on the slopes.

The mountains mean quality time with your family and we want to make it easier on you – and your wallet! That’s why when you stay and play for two or more nights, kids 12 and younger ski FREE. Book two or more nights and you'll receive one day of free skiing for kids 12 & under, plus an additional day of free skiing for each additional room night booked. There are no blackout dates and no hoops to jump through - this offer is available every day, all season long.

Lodging Perks | Keystone Ski Resort

Play for free at Keystone Resort this winter with perks like free night skiing, free Nordic Center access, free ice skating and more.

www.keystoneresort.com

 

[Seldomski]

See below

I see the link. How do you get there from the Keystone main page? What series of buttons are you clicking to get there? What can you type in google to get that website to show up as a result?

 

[Seldomski]

@Alumacraft3 - does the promotion show up in your email receipt from the room reservation?

 

[Philpug]

There are a couple of things that are disappointing for me here.
1. Keystone knows that there is a problem in that the program is up in the air.
2. The ads are still up.
3. I personally notified someone of significant position at Vail (with no reply) and the ads are still up.

 

[crgildart]

There are a couple of things that are disappointing for me here.
1. Keystone knows that there is a problem in that the program is up in the air.
2. The ads are still up.
3. I personally notified someone of significant position at Vail (with no reply) and the ads are still up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^100%^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think anyone really blames them for walking it back due to the extreme circumstances a pandemic presents. They just should have made that move and taken down the promotion communications a long time ago..

3. I personally notified someone of significant position at Vail (with no reply) and the ads are still up.

Pugski On Your Side Troubleshooter PhilPug LOL!

 

[raytseng]

its a bit of a twisted position to say they are advertising. I don't treat it 100% as such, but apparently that has some folks riled up. The link I view as an orphaned page it is just coming up from search but a user has to know about it and search it out. If you were to start at the home page or try to book lodging i see the big warning popup saying lift reservations required, I see no links or ads to this promo in the booking flow or under deals.

It is more incompetence that they didn't remove the page/didnt edit the page to say expired and the original page has the unfortunate wording of "all season long" or no blackouts and is undated.
But I dont view it as an actively advertised promo. As a example that this isn't isolated I can also pull up old promo page URLs for a few other old deals at keystone and other vailresorts via search, some say expired, but some they also failed to update and they still has buttons /form to start the booking. But you can't find these pages outside of search or saved urls.
Nor does the "play for free" show up as a line item in your cart and during checkout as it says it should for qualified purchases (and where valid promos do show up).

For the not a lawyer crowd, incompetence and badfaith vs goodfaith are material points in how disputes and breaches are resolved.

 

[Philpug]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^100%^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think anyone really blames them for walking it back due to the extreme circumstances a pandemic presents. They just should have made that move and taken down the promotion communications a long time ago..
Pugski On Your Side Troubleshooter PhilPug LOL!

I can understand them missing the promotion with everything that had to be addressed with Covid-19...but once it was brought to their attention, there is no reason for it to still be up.

 

[DanoT]

If I were the OP and Vail reneges on the kids ski free, I would get the refund for the room and ask for the pass refund. If Vail refuses to refund the passes, I ask for a supervisor and get that person's name and then I would go ahead with the rooms and buy the kid's passes and tell the Vail supervisor that they will be sued in small claims court for breaking the Ski & Stay contract for the amount of the kids passes, legal fees and punitive damages. "Have a nice day".

 

[crgildart]

its a bit of a twisted position to say they are advertising. I don't treat it 100% as such, but apparently that has some folks riled up. The link I view as an orphaned page it is just coming up from search but a user has to know about it and seardh it out. If you were to start at the home page or try to book lodging i see the big warning popup saying lift reservations required, I see no links or ads to this promo in the booking flow or under deals.
l.
It is more incompetence that they didn't remove the page/didnt edit the page to say expired and the original page has the unfortunate wording of "all the time" or no blackouts.
But I dont view it as an actively advertised promo. As a example that this isn't isolated I can also pull up old promo page URLs for a few other old deals at keystone and other vailresorts via search, some say expired, but some they failed to update and they still has buttons /form to start the booking. But you can't find these pages outside of search or saved urls, nor does the "play for free" show up as a line item in your cart and during checkout as it says it should for qualified purchases (where valid promos do).
For the not a lawyer crowd, incompetence and badfaith vs goodfaith are material points in how disputes and breaches are resolved.

In a past life I was a retail store manager for about 10 years, several different stores. Every single one, if we neglected to take down a sign in the store after the promotion ended, we were 100% obligated to honor that promotion if the end date was not clearly on said sinage. Casual shopping experience seems to suggest this is still the case. Any manager can say no and then wait and see if the customer escalates to corporate or court over it. But, I'd view the web domain pages, even if not easy to find just like the store sinage when it comes to offers and promotions.

Edit, just remembered a hilarious example... Managing a store in a luggage specialty chain.. Some manager at another location decided it would be slick to put the promition cards INSIDE the piece of luggage the promotion applied to. That way the customer would be looking at the item then see the special deal on it. Anyway, they transferred some of those items to my store and we had no idea they had put the hang tags INSIDE the bags. LOL! Were finding them months later, and at a bunch of other stores. And, yep, the company buyer told us to honor them but we got hollered at every time they saw anytime free bag being rung up as such..

 

[raytseng]

Thats the whole point of this thread right?
When things aren't perfect how are they to be resolved?
The world isnt 100% black or white, and there are shades in between.
Even if you personally want to be an absolutist and things are either perfect or a literal federal case event thats just your personal high standard.
The law recognizes the world is messy and there is a sliding scale and differences to the circumstances of the scenario and its not always just straight to 100%.

 

[crgildart]

Thats the whole point of this thread right?
When things aren't perfect how are they to be resolved?
The world isnt 100% black or white, and there are shades in between.
Even if you personally want to be an absolutist and things are either perfect or the most egregious federal case event thats just your personal high standard.
The law recognizes the world is messy and there is a sliding scale and differences to the circumstances of the scenario and its not always just straight to 100%.

Exactly.. it depends many factors. If the seller honestly meant to take down the promotion, tried to take down that promotion but failed to due to incompetence on their end leaving it plainly discoverable and visible they're likely going to be held to it in spite of their good intentions..

If a customer switched price tags or hacked the website to reveal the hidden information the seller isn't held to the offer.

Punishment and penalties for things that are determined to be due to negligence or even pure accidents depend on the damage done. If somebody was killed, the error will have stronger consequences for the actor obviously than it would if someone lost a couple hundred dollars..

 

[Philpug]

Pugski On Your Side Troubleshooter PhilPug LOL!

Just as I defend a brand when a consumer gets on a soapbox I will also call out a brand when they are off base. I did contact Vail and gave then an opportunity to correct this and they chose not to.

 

[dbostedo]

I wonder if they think that they HAVE pulled down the promotion, by breaking/removing the links from the main site; And without realizing that people may have bookmarks or other links that still get them to that page?

Because it doesn't appear to be reachable from the main site anymore.

 

[dovski]

I wonder if they think that they HAVE pulled down the promotion, by breaking/removing the links from the main site; And without realizing that people may have bookmarks or other links that still get them to that page?

Because it doesn't appear to be reachable from the main site anymore.

If the webpage is already cashed in your browser, you may still see it even after it is pulled down. In this case I can still access that page when I click on the link and since I have never visited that site before it means the page is still live advertising the promotion.

 

[dbostedo]

If the webpage is already cashed in your browser, you may still see it even after it is pulled down. In this case I can still access that page when I click on the link and since I have never visited that site before it means the page is still live advertising the promotion.

Sure, and good point. And as you say, it's not a cache issue... it's that it's still actually reachable.

But maybe you missed my point? They no longer give you a way to get to that page if you DON'T know the the direct link. So maybe someone on Vail's side thinks they have pulled down the offer, not realizing that it could be spread around still like we've got going on in this thread. They really should not let the page be accessible at all, or better yet, put a up an explanation of why it's not being offered, if that's in fact the case.

It's an awfully well known program they advertise pretty heavily typically, so I'm a bit surprised they haven't formally addressed it. It would be as simple as "due to the restrictions on skier capacity and need for reservations, we cannot offer the kids ski free offer for the 2020-2021 season" or something. Maybe they worry that that will open them up to exactly what we're seeing in this thread - people wanting passes refunded because they thought kids would be free.

EDIT to add: Or maybe this falls under the old rule of don't attribute to malice anything that can just be attributed to stupidity.

 

[Alumacraft3]

The only reason I know that they are thinking about not honoring the kids ski free promotion is because I called and specifically asked if they had any details about how it was going to work with the reservation system. I’m guessing a few people have called asking the same question but the majority probably have not. If they decide to not honor it I don’t see how they won’t have a giant crap show on their hands. They conveniently waited until after the early order pass sale is over to figure things out. You can’t count on buying single day passes because of the reservation system so that means parents are going to have to buy full price passes for their kids if they want to ski.

 

[RobSN]

It would be as simple as "due to the restrictions on skier capacity and need for reservations, we cannot continue to offer the kids ski free offer for the 2020-2021 season for future reservations" or something.

FIFY

 

[crgildart]

You can’t count on buying single day passes because of the reservation system so that means parents are going to have to buy full price passes for their kids if they want to ski.

I thought most places were putting lodge guests all the way at the front/top of the list for skiing and reservations. If you are staying there, you are guaranteed a spot. It just won't be free. It's walk up visitors who won't be able to purchase lift tickets.

 

[Beartown]

I thought most places were putting lodge guests all the way at the front/top of the list for skiing and reservations. If you are staying there, you are guaranteed a spot. It just won't be free. It's walk up visitors who won't be able to purchase lift tickets.

From Epic Pass FAQ: