Colorado Vail passes the $200 ticket window price

[Monique]

This is much like the lesson program that @Monique has used at Breck for several years. Vail is changing programs like this to eventually phase them out.

I found an email from back in 2008 about Breck lesson club. So I've been participating AT LEAST that long. At that time, it was every Thursday through Sunday except for blackout periods, and it was always just barely more than the cost of two lessons.

I would be very interested in any solid intel about phasing out the programs. I certainly have suspected as much for years, but so far it seems to be the "frog in a pot" approach, becoming more expensive and less beneficial every year. The Breck webpage about the lesson program currently lists the cost as about equivalent to paying for the same number of walk-up lessons, but it also lists the current season's exact dates, so I'm hoping it's some default value and not reality.

AFAIK Keystone still has the old style lesson club - four days a week, unlimited except for blackout days, and students are mixed in with walk-up students. And they have trouble putting together groups of ripper skiers, so the people who do the club tend to have to ski with level 6 and 7 groups.

I suspect Breck's program is a victim of its own success - not only has it become incredibly popular, but many of us have advanced significantly in both skill and terrain, and there are enough of us that the program is very top heavy. That means that we are a major component of the lift lines serving the tastiest runs, and also that we monopolize the most qualified and/or most aggro instructors at Breck. (The flip side, that we also keep their best instructors happy by providing consistent income during off-peak and by giving them classes that can lap challenging terrain all day long, is probably overlooked by upper management.) And they can't just swap in other instructors. There are very few instructors who can keep up with the top several groups. (I can hear the pitchforks being deployed now. Look, instructors, just trust me on this one. When the regular instructors can't be there, the subs ... do not do well. )

Anyway, I have always believed that the program was too good to be true. It's a lot more restrictive now, but I have no doubt it will continue becoming more expensive and more restrictive until the regulars just give up. Maybe we'll move to Keystone ...

 

[raytseng]

yea I remember the sierra/ns used to also be $49 for the wrist band and then like extra small fee $10 per day.

I'm not sure about the phaseout because it seems like they are pushing the platinum signage and marketting pretty hard.

 

[Green08]

You should have some kind of extra ticket p

Yes I did. But not because it's not "normally" a concern. I live in Alabama and ski every year 5-10 days at Keystone and Abasin. I buy that Epic pass at around $300 every year. Pays for itself in 2 1/2 days at Keystone. So, it definitely saves me money. I meet people there all the time from out of state that come out for a week just to ski Keystone and they buy a week long pass at $600+ dollars (don't know exact figure). I tell them about the Epic Pass for around $300 and they say they didn't know about it.

However, for skiing Purgatory ($89 lift ticket), Telluride ($139), and Crested Butte ($102) for one or two days each...and after I've just retired and want to reward myself on a rare road trip...I'm just not going to sweat trying to score discounts on lift tickets.

You can certainly beat the price at Crested Butte with your Epic Pass privileges, even on the Keystone Pass. Just make sure to buy 7+ days out.

The Epic 7 Day card is probably $600+ for sure. It really comes down to how many places and days folks want to ski. Just adding Breck for a day or two jumps you above $500 on a pass. Hard to see how an Epic Local might not be a better deal early in the purchase window...still amazed at that oversight given the pop up next to each other on the purchase page!!

 

[New2]

well, that makes a lot of assumptions based on 1 vague number based on 1-sided transactional interviewee's example;
but as counter evidence, there wouldn't made a worse deal than the mountain collective.

If you think instead about the ikon as just a double purchase of a mountain collective and that shouldn't have been a loss-leading product

I confess I have no real idea of the financials behind the MCP. I've kind of assumed it's a "collective," based on the name, with relatively equal sharing probably based on usage. But one huge distinction is that MCP isn't acting as an effective local season pass for much of anyone who skis/boards much.

Looking at theoretical financial breakdown of that model for IKON, based on completely made up numbers...

100k Ikon passes sold, maybe $70 million revenue. 15 days average usage for 1.5 million skier days.
If Alta has 60,000 Ikon days, that's 4%. If Alta gets 4% of the Ikon revenue, that's $2.8 million. $46.67 per skier day.
When Alta takes a retrospective look at this, they're going to try to estimate the lost potential revenue (let's say 20k skiers wouldn't have visited; 20k would've visited with MCP for an average of maybe $40 per skier day; 20k would've visited anyway and paid for a higher-priced product... maybe $80 per skier day). So all in all they're up $6.67 per Ikon skier day (plus ancillary spending for +20k additional skier days, which I admit is not insignificant). But in that case, they're going to be looking over at that Bill Jensen interview thinking man, if we'd negotiated as well as Telluride, we'd have another $6 million today. And $6 million is not pocket change to a single-resort operator like Alta. Alterra took us for a ride.

The same basic idea could be applied across all the other Ikon partners.

For Ikon to be making Alta somewhere in the ballpark of Telluride's claimed numbers by revenue-sharing, it sounds to me like Alta would need to have negotiated something in the ballpark of 10% of Ikon revenue. Snowbird, Jackson Hole, and Aspen should be in the same ballpark. And that might mean 25% for Boyne, 25% for Powdr. 5% for Taos, SkiBig3, and Revelstoke. And maybe 5% total for the outside-North-America destinations. Which would imply that Alterra's committed 110% of its Ikon revenue to its partners. Which brings us right back to that spot where Alterra is losing money on each Ikon Pass product it sells. And they still have that big hole from the foregone pass sales that prior operators relied on. And something like this is what I suspect is happening... whether it's based on revenue-sharing or per-skier dollar figures or flat-rate payments or some mix. The speed with which Alterra locked in so many competitors makes me suspect they were offering very attractive terms.

I'd love to hear specifically where I'm wrong. Or see someone else's back-of-the-napkin outline of how Ikon makes financial sense for both Alterra and its partners.

 

[Bolder]

Looking at all the figures being thrown about, I think what it clearly shows that if you ski a lot, it's not a "rich person's" sport. In other words, if you are fortunate to live within a reasonable distance of a ski area, and can do it 20-30 days a year, spending even $2k for a top-level pass and, say, $1000 a year on gas/food (and $500 on gear), it's not crazy. Where it becomes expensive is if you have to do it as a vacation, with airfare, week or day passes, and lodging and resort food.

Speaking of Disneyland/World: Perhaps my least favorite places in the world. The last Disney product I went to (Euro Disney), I felt that not only had I been fleeced but drawn, quartered and roasted on a spit. Never again.

 

[Nobody]

And me that I thought that 52,50 € for a day ticket (inclusive of daily insurance coverage and magnetic card deposit) at my home mountain was a bit high.

 

[Philpug]

And me that I thought that 52,50 € for a day ticket (inclusive of daily insurance coverage and magnetic card deposit) at my home mountain was a bit high.

Do you have the option on buying a seasons pass?

 

[Tricia]

yea I remember the sierra/ns used to also be $49 for the wrist band and then like extra small fee $10 per day.

I'm not sure about the phaseout because it seems like they are pushing the platinum signage and marketting pretty hard.

About 4 or 5 years ago, the members of the Gold Pass got a notice that they are eliminating the program. There was so much outcry that Vail/Northstar decided to keep the Gold Pass but they increased the cost so much that a bunch of pass holders who'd been doing it for a loooooong time didn't pony up.
Each year since then, they've increased the rate, changed the program just enough to lose a few more.

Two years ago, when I was still working at Northstar, they were working on an entire Platinum Program that would compliment the Platinum Lockers, although not targeted specifically to the Platinum Locker members.
The program they initially talked about included, in its long list of Platinum Experiences, Platinum Shopping at the store where Phil and I worked.
If you wanted to pay for the experience, you would get a designated shopper to work with you, served espresso while you shopped, and could request one of the capable hard goods experts to help pick out your demo skis. Phil and I were the designated hard goods experts for this program.
The Platinum Shopping experience fell through for a variety of reasons, but....
They currently offer the -

• Platinum Tost
• Platinum Guide
• Platinum First Tracks
• Platinum Valet
• Platinum Pass (or day pass)

Last year they entertained the Platinum S'mores, where you had a chef make your own s'mores with ingredients you picked (cookies, type of chocolate, variety of marshmallows) instead of the usual s'mores that everyone else gets.
I think it never really took off because...its a s'more.

 

[Nobody]

And me that I thought that 52,50 € for a day ticket (inclusive of daily insurance coverage and magnetic card deposit) at my home mountain was a bit high.

Do you have the option on buying a seasons pass?

Of course I do Phil. Listed price in this season is 703€...taking advantage of discount possibilities/offers I get it down to 316€ (plus insurance, 46€)...avg 12-14 days of skiing and I'm on par (I ski anything between 35-50 days on my home mountain)
The single day ticket was not meant for me, it was for a visiting relative (the complete price breakdown is : 45€ day ticket +2,50€ for insurance+5€ deposit for the magnetic card). This over New Year time, in other periods of the season day ticket prices are, marginally, lower.

 

[Philpug]

Of course I do Phil. Listed price in this season is 703€...taking advantage of discount possibilities/offers I get it down to 316€ (plus insurance, 46€)...avg 12-14 days of skiing and I'm on par (I ski anything between 35-50 days on my home mountain)
The single day ticket was not meant for me, it was for a visiting relative (the complete price breakdown is : 45€ day ticket +2,50€ for insurance+5€ deposit for the magnetic card). This over New Year time, in other periods of the season day ticket prices are, marginally, lower.

I wasn't sure if Euro resorts offered season passes or just day passes.

 

[Nobody]

Yeah, without the possibility of a season pass I wouldn't be able to ski those many days and I'd be stuck to the 10-15 days (absolute max) per season tier...maybe even less
BTW my home mountain do offer also a year round pass which provides : winter access to all lifts of the mountain + summer access to all local operating lifts + unlimited winter access to Madonna di Campiglio ski area + 5 days of access to the Dolomiti SuperSki area.

 

[James]

Of course I do Phil. Listed price in this season is 703€...taking advantage of discount possibilities/offers I get it down to 316€ (plus insurance, 46€)...avg 12-14 days of skiing and I'm on par (I ski anything between 35-50 days on my home mountain)
The single day ticket was not meant for me, it was for a visiting relative (the complete price breakdown is : 45€ day ticket +2,50€ for insurance+5€ deposit for the magnetic card). This over New Year time, in other periods of the season day ticket prices are, marginally, lower.

Does the insurance cover off the piste but within the ski area? Or even off piste but out? Do they have ski area boundary distinctions?
Insurance is such a gray area. Lack of it...a black, well red area.

 

[François Pugh]

That ought to keep the riff raff out.

As long as there are enough rich to pay the high prices, Vail will continue to concentrate on them. They make more money that way.

 

[Monique]

Last year they entertained the Platinum S'mores

Whut.

 

[LKLA]

That ought to keep the riff raff out.

As long as there are enough rich to pay the high prices, Vail will continue to concentrate on them. They make more money that way.

I was thinking the same thing about Apple when I shelled out $1,099 for a new phone yesterday.

 

[Tricia]

Another thing:
The women's program at Northstar was $399.00 for a 4 hr lesson that included lift ticket, lesson, high performance rental gear and an après wine and cheese.
This was, IMHO, an affordable program during the holidays.

Its like VR is doing affordable things like this to get skiers hooked, then....

 

[Tricia]

Whut.

Seriously, gourmet cookies, gourmet chocolates, gourmet marshmallows......
Like I said, it never took off because ....its a s'more.

 

[James]

Have they gone to Platinum bathrooms or lounges yet?

 

[raytseng]

yes Northstar has Tahoe mountain club which is like a countryclub membership with private restaurant midmtn and lounge with privateski check. It hss membership buyin like a country club, vs ala carte. This has always been there even before vail. Many other resorts have members "locker rooms" too that are often a club more than just a locker. but the difference is you're still otherwise equal on the slopes

 

[SSSdave]

I have a box full of old trail maps and dug out the one that had been in my pocket the day we skied Vail in 1983. But did not have any lift ticket info. Another site noted a 1979 Vail lift ticket was just $10. Between 1979 and 1983 the CPI rose 37% so a ticket when I skied might have been $14 though was probably more even then. Since then the CPI has risen 348% so at that rate would be $35 today haha. As we toured a number of Rockies resorts what I do recall was lodging near Vail even then was so expensive like in 3 figures that we ended up in Frisco and after a day at Breckenridge drove over the pass to Vail.