Colorado Vail passes the $200 ticket window price

[Goran M.]

You don't have the litigious vibe that we (sadly) seem to have.

I do not think that it is the "litigious vibe" that makes daily ticket at Vail go to $209.

It must be something else ...

 

[raytseng]

I would also interject with a caution we should not judge folks on how they spend their money. We might hate the idea of paying a crazy price for a day ticket. But, many would see a willingness to drop thousands on gear we use for maybe a couple years and 20-50 days as a waste.

To each their own. And from each according to how much they are willing to pay for what they see as value.

Agree,
But as an add on, realize those window ticket are the ones that are subsidizing your cheap skiing and don't be a jerk on the mountain. Help those 1 weekend a year warriors find their way around if they got their map out; help them pick up their gear or ask them if they are OK when they have a yard sale.
The mystique of catering to the local "loyal passholder" is actually a falsehood. We are the ones paying the least per day, and actually should be lowest on the totem pole with the least privileges and least whining.

 

[LKLA]

Just remember, Sunlight got there first with their $700 lift ticket



Mmmm, I think you're missing something here. Get $X to pay Powdr/Boyne/Alta/Snowbird/Jackson/Taos/Aspen $X+Y is also not a very good business. This board has recently seen evidence that Vail is paying Telluride somewhere in the ballpark of $118 per day. Does anyone really believe that management at Telluride is that much savvier than management at Powdr/Boyne/Alta/Snowbird/Jackson/Taos/Aspen? I admire the management team at Telluride, but most or all of those others have smart folks too. Which leads me to the conclusion that Alterra is losing big money on the Ikon this season... all so that they can be "disruptive" and collect consumer information. The biggest difference I see is that there is a real underlying business at the Alterra ski areas (whereas Movie Pass had no real underlying business). But removing season pass revenue and turning into a money-losing Ikon Pass undercuts the true business. Starts looking an awful lot like a ponzi scheme/pump and dump scam to me.

Whether what was said in the CNBC interview by Bill Jensen is true or not is hard/impossible to know. Seems within ball park from other deals I am aware of but hard to know if it’s exactly what he said it is. Frankly it could be more!

Of course MoviePass and Vail or Alterra are completely different animals. MoviePass is basically done in barely a couple of years while Vail is one of the best run companies around. With all due respect - you either have no idea of MoviePass’ business and/or how Vail or Alterra make money.

Vail feels it’s pass will attract more people if it includes Telluride in its offering. For one they do not want IKON including such a high profile mountain it in its pass. Vail also wants to better understand how Telluride works if it’s considering a future transaction. Vail also wants to gain valuable data attribution from those folks. And of course because it makes money! If you think the margin on Vail’s season passes is 15% then you are sorely mistaken. They are not loosing money on an $900 pass by giving away $120. Why would they not do a JV with a great and unique mountain like Telluride!?

Not sure how you are arriving at your conclusions. Alterra is not loosing money. In fact, it’s ahead of projections on how many passes it has sold. I can’t disclose more on that front but if you don’t believe me just look at Vail’s most recent pass sales metrics - pass sales were barely up 8% (ex military pass) - a huge drop from the last few years. The main reason for that - IKON pass.

Alterra has a different business plan than Vail. Similar in many respects but different in others. All these operators are smart - why all of the ones you named are still around and largely thriving. But not sure how that impedes them from entering into joint ventures or doing business together.

 

[LKLA]

I do not think that it is the "litigious vibe" that makes daily ticket at Vail go to $209.

It must be something else ...

Reminds me of what makes a gallon of gas cost $7.80 in Norway, which by the way is not far from some of the world’s largest oil deposits, or why it costs $40 in tolls to drive the 400 miles from Madrid to Barcelona.

Nothing is perfect!

 

[Goran M.]

Norway is !!!

 

[Goran M.]

$7.80 gets you quite a lot - education, health care, elderly care, quality of life ... I do not see Norwegians complaining about price of gas.

 

[LKLA]

$7.80 gets you quite a lot - education, health care, elderly care, quality of life ... I do not see Norwegians complaining about price of gas.

Some likely complain while others may very well be happy with it. You don't see me complaining about the cost of skiing. Others do complain. Neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion or perspective. Vail alone makes $2 billion a year, so something tells me that there are plenty of people that are not "complaining" about the cost if skiing.

Btw, not sure the French feel the same way as the folks in Norway. That $0.60 tax on gas/diesel did not seem to be very well received. And there are plenty of good places to get a public education in the US - UCLA, UVA, Berkeley, University of Michigan, UNC,...

 

[TheArchitect]

Crazy and hard to believe we've broken the $200 barrier. Could I afford $209 day ticket? Yeah, I guess. Would I ever pay $209 for one? Never; Just don't see the value. Lots of other great places to ski for much less.

 

[Coach13]

Disney World is probably a very good comparison for ticket pricing, as well as losing benefits, and food costs. Captive audience element and trying to make extra days seem like a cheap value.

I think Disney is a perfect example and actually what I compare to Vail’s pricing/value model. I think it’s much more than a captive audience though as travelers have many options as to where to go to spend their vacation dollars. I think it’s more about perceived value/experience in return for the expected cash outlay. Using my wife as an example she is super frugal in the rest of her spending habits but she doesn’t bat an eye at our annual 2 week Disney trip or on our many visits to Vail.

 

[LKLA]

Crazy and hard to believe we've broken the $200 barrier. Could I afford $209 day ticket? Yeah, I guess. Would I ever pay $209 for one? Never. Just don't see the value. Lots of other great places to ski for much less.

The last time we played golf at Pebble Beach it was well over $400 per person. I would have definitely welcomed a season pass vs paying window prices!

 

[Coach13]

What I always wonder is why Vail (Epic) and other pass options (IKON) cut off season pass sales at a certain date? If I ‘m running things and someone wants a season pass 2 weeks prior to closing, I’m selling it to them.

 

[Goran M.]

$50 - the most expensive lift ticket in Norway.

Sure enough, French people have tendency to rebel ... excess of wine and good food would have that effect. Can you imagine what would happen if Val D'Isere raised ticket prices to $209/day ... Bastille !!!

we are ok here.

As per people "complaining" - exactly my point, plenty of people are making lots of money on this deal. Making money .

I tend to be pro consumer (skier) and I understand business side as well. We are lucky that we can choose - Vail or no Vail prices to pay...

 

[LKLA]

What I always wonder is why Vail (Epic) and other pass options (IKON) cut off season pass sales at a certain date? If I ‘m running things and someone wants a season pass 2 weeks prior to closing, I’m selling it to them.

Because it would largely defeat the purpose of the urgency created by early bird prices and it would create issue with processing the pass and so forth. But aside from that, Vail wants the money in May - October when it barely has any money coming in while at the same time having to shell out for capital expenditures and upgrades and constructions projects that can not be done during the season. Btw, others will sell you a pass whenever you want to buy one (Peak Resorts will sell you a pass whenever - just at a much higher price).

And at $125, $150 or $200 per ticket at the window, they likely make more money selling you a three or five or seven day pack "Hi sir, our daily ticket price is $150, but if you buy a five pack we can offer you the bargain price of $700, we will take off a whole $50 for you."

 

[RuleMiHa]

That is what holds me back from the passes as well, it really requires 2 4-day trips to breakeven. While we often take more than one trip I have not yet been willing to commit to 1 brand of mountains for all trips. When you add up all the travel costs, lodging, food, etc... the savings from a season-pass used 8-10 days/year just don't get me much return. The flexibility to go to other mountains I haven't explored yet is more valuable.

Make sure you look at the midweek/blackout passes. A few years ago I had an Abasin Double Down pass and a Maxx Pass and last year I had a Loveland Pass. I found that if I carefully looked at the options (midweek, etc.) I could break even pretty quickly.

What I always wonder is why Vail (Epic) and other pass options (IKON) cut off season pass sales at a certain date? If I ‘m running things and someone wants a season pass 2 weeks prior to closing, I’m selling it to them.

Scarcity. Studies actually show that if you sell something limited in time or quantity people are more likely to buy, whereas if you give them unlimited time they'll "think about it" forever! That's why all the sales say "today only", everyday.

 

[TheArchitect]

The last time we played golf at Pebble Beach it was well over $400 per person. I would have definitely welcomed a season pass vs paying window prices!

I'm glad I never got into golf. A number of my extended family play but I was never interested.

 

[LKLA]

I'm glad I never got into golf. A number of my extended family play but I was never interested.

It's a beautiful sport and like skiing it is a great family activity, but it is expensive and time consuming. I thought tennis was both of those things, and then golf came along. Other than my sailing friends, I can't think of another sport where folks I know spend more money.

 

[Goran M.]

You should try polo ...

 

[LKLA]

You should try polo ...

Waterpolo?

I am in my 40s - most folks I hang around with are too old to be riding around on ponies, but those whose kids have taken to show jumping are in a world of pain. They might as well start burning $100 bills to heat the house

 

[focker]

It's a beautiful sport and like skiing it is a great family activity, but it is expensive and time consuming. I thought tennis was both of those things, and then golf came along. Other than my sailing friends, I can't think of another sport where folks I know spend more money.

There are many many many good courses you can play for under $100 per round. There are Thousands of good courses in the US. Golf can be played very cheaply. I pay $35 to pay a great course with a cart. The great thing about golf if the cheaper courses aren't smaller, unlike ski hills where when you ski a tiny hill you feel like you're missing out on something.

 

[Tom K.]

Great, wide ranging thread. A few thoughts:

I won’t even let someone else pay for me to ski Vail. I might make an exception if my family had been there to ski with but no way in hell will I ski there alone on a paid lift ticket.

Yup! Otherwise, nope!

You don't have to fly private to ski at Sun Valley. Heck, you don't even have to fly business class You might not even need to fly at all.

Exactly. We drive OUR MINIVAN to SV, mostly because it works so well, and also partly because it annoys the snobs.

Threads like this remind me that there are places out there like Loveland, Solitude, Brighton and Bridger Bowl where you can ski an excellent resort and not have to blow your kids college $$ to do so.

Quick Bridger story. I grew up taking family trips there from MN in late March in the family station wagon. As Senior NSPS, my parents could sign on to the patrol and ski free, helping only with the end-of-day sweep so the pro patrollers didn't have to do two laps. Tickets for my sisters and me we ONE DOLLAR through ninth grade. The Baxter Hotel gave patrollers half price rooms and food. Great memories, and the trip didn't bankrupt my folks!

$7.80 gets you quite a lot - education, health care, elderly care, quality of life ... I do not see Norwegians complaining about price of gas.

True, mostly, but Norway receives huge royalties from North Sea oil. So much so that I once saw an interview with a Norwegian politician that said politics in Norway is kind of boring, since there is enough money to fund just about every wish of every party, then some left over. Not a bad problem to have.