Colorado Vail passes the $200 ticket window price

[BS Slarver]

You’ve gotta wonder when they will hit the tipping point for push back from the day skier, obviously $ 209 wasn’t it.
Maybe it’s $ 299.95 ?

 

[Tom K.]

Perhaps Vail is trying to drive more people towards the Epic Pass with crazy-high day rates?

Related Topic: Personally, I wouldn't pay $100 to ski Vail, but that's just personal preference.

 

[LKLA]

Didn’t say skiing wasn’t expensive, it is. But, other activities are just as expensive if you pay way-up prices. Jumping the shark to exclusivity was your call. Greens fees at many of the premium public golf courses are well above $200. Vail/Beaver Creek are premium/destination areas the same as golf courses.

I am sure you can have a nice skiing experience for $30, and I am sure that there are nice golf courses where a round of golf costs $30. But that is the exception rather than the norm.

You "forget" to mention that most of the exclusive / best golf clubs are private (Friar's Head, Pine Valley, Oakmont, Seminole, Cypress Point, Bel-Air, Maidstone, LA Country Club,...), which often means hefty initiation fees - in many cases from $50,000 to $500,000. On top of that you have annual dues, anywhere from $2,000 to $20,000 a year.

The cost of playing golf at these clubs is a better - more realistic - comparison to the cost of skiing at the most exclusive / best ski resorts such as Aspen, Deer Valley, Beaver Creek, Vail, Stowe, Alta, Telluride, Whistler, Jackson Hole, Sun Valley,..There are places like the Cimarron Mountain Club and Yellowstone Club that are private ski resorts, but they represent the exception (barely a handful of places out of over 400 ski areas).

Around where I live it's hard to play a round of golf (four hours of "fun") at either a public or private course for much less than $100, at least not at a place that resembles a golf course. Yet, you can ski at some of the most exclusive / best ski resorts in the area for $100 or less - for 8 hours of fun.

 

[cantunamunch]

You’ve gotta wonder when they will hit the tipping point for push back from the day skier, obviously $ 209 wasn’t it.
Maybe it’s $ 299.95 ?

Exactly. The long ticket window line is an indicator that the threshold of diminishing revenue has not been achieved.

 

[KevinF]

Exactly. The long ticket window line is an indicator that the threshold of diminishing revenue has not been achieved.

As a former manager of mine memorably stated: “if they are willing to pay, we are willing to charge them”.

 

[coskigirl]

Perhaps Vail is trying to drive more people towards the Epic Pass with crazy-high day rates?

Related Topic: Personally, I wouldn't pay $100 to ski Vail, but that's just personal preference.

My aunt and uncle have a home in Eagle-Vail and I was staying there for a respite right after I finished finals in December. My aunt offered to pay for a lift ticket at Vail. I refused as I was perfectly happy to drive over the pass to Copper for the day. I won’t even let someone else pay for me to ski Vail. I might make an exception if my family had been there to ski with but no way in hell will I ski there alone on a paid lift ticket.

 

[cantunamunch]

As a former manager of mine memorably stated: “if they are willing to pay, we are willing to charge them”.

We have to face the likelihood that increased revenue is not consonant with sport growth.

@coskigirl is awesome because she recognises that travel is the true way to overcome pass cost margins. The problem is our travel arrangements aren't liquid enough. How many ski bums do you see in the ski bum thread talking about spending a winter at Shames Mountain? That's right, zero.

 

[jonc]

Taking a look at the price of an adult one day ticket for Saturday, January 26th (Stowe $100, Whistler $105, Breckenridge $147, Beaver $161, Northstar $129, Canyons $139), the average price is around $130.

Those are advance purchase rates, the costs go up even more if you buy closer to your ski day: within 7 days, within 48-hours, or walk-up window rates. Stowe for example charges $134 walk-up window rate on that day. Holiday weekends window rate is $139.

As a family who only visits a few days a year (4-5) I notice it has gone up a lot in the last 2 years since the Vail purchase, especially for the closer in rates.

 

[LKLA]

We have to face the likelihood that increased revenue is not consonant with sport growth.

@coskigirl is awesome because she recognises that travel is the true way to overcome pass cost margins. The problem is our travel arrangements aren't liquid enough. How many ski bums do you see in the ski bum thread talking about spending a winter at Shames Mountain? That's right, zero.

This is far from a unique dynamic to the ski industry:

In 1998 the movie industry sold 1,443,828,069 tickets in the US. In 2018, it sold 1,225,312,616 tickets. A 15% decline in attendance.

In 1998, the movie industry did $6,771,554,637 in sales in the US. In 2018, the movie industry did $10,992,959,545 in sales in the US. A 62% increase in revenue.

 

[raytseng]

Perhaps Vail is trying to drive more people towards the Epic Pass with crazy-high day rates?

Related Topic: Personally, I wouldn't pay $100 to ski Vail, but that's just personal preference.

its not perhaps. its public and open. I wrote before if you read theough the 10k or other shareholder finsncial reports they completely and plainly outline the business strategy by categorizing 2 different types of clients. The breakeven ratio point of less than 5days is absurdly low, which is the carrot, and the window price (and stopping sales) is the stick to force you to commit.
Squaw/alpine didnt play the strategy fully this year, as they still offer the 4pack at a relatively reasonable rate rather than cutting off those sales completely.

The question is when this duopoly battle for
passholders ends, will they then start jacking up pass rates? Or will they keep it the same and just pack the mountains and reduce the quality of the product or start charging for every little thing (i.e. like airlines and flying coach)

 

[Bad Bob]

Went to the Sun Valley ticket window to find the Senior day rate ticket for the day. They have a system where you pick up an annual Senior Pass head to the liftline, and your credit card is billed for that day. Being suspicious by nature about blind charges I just wanted to see how many shares of stock I would have to sell to cover the day. The lady at the window had to check on her computer; according to her, 'nobody ever asks'. Senior turned out to be $115 (grumble grumble).

On the "richman's sport" concept; there were over 20 private jets (I lost count there when driving by) at the Hailly, ID airport, the closest to SV on Jan 1st. Talking to a SV hospitality employee, she stated there had been over 100 of them on Christmas Day and the airport basically ran out of parking spots for the planes. It is a sport for the rich at that level.

 

[LKLA]

Those are advance purchase rates, the costs go up even more if you buy closer to your ski day: within 7 days, within 48-hours, or walk-up window rates. Stowe for example charges $134 walk-up window rate on that day. Holiday weekends window rate is $139.

As a family who only visits a few days a year (4-5) I notice it has gone up a lot in the last 2 years since the Vail purchase, especially for the closer in rates.

Yes, those are advance ticket rates - logically since today is Jan 2nd And yes, like most things in life it will cost more if you gain "optionality" with the passing of time (makes sense).

 

[raytseng]

As a former manager of mine memorably stated: “if they are willing to pay, we are willing to charge them”.

thats an easy question. the real ballsy question is in a low week,month,or low year if he is willing to hold the window rates at $200 lift ticket price even if means the mountain is deserted for all of december, or deserted in march/april and still keep the mtn open as promised through Easter, with only 300 passholders and barely any window tickets sales to preserve the threat.
The unwavering no discounts is what is the hard move that locks in next years pass sales.

 

[LKLA]

its not perhaps. its public and open. I wrote before if you read theough the 10k or other shareholder finsncial reports they completely and plainly outline the business strategy by categorizing 2 different types of clients. The breakeven ratio point of less than 5days is absurdly low, which is the carrot, and the window price (and stopping sales) is the stick to force you to commit.
Squaw/alpine didnt play the strategy fully this year, as they still offer the 4pack at a relatively reasonable rate rather than cutting off those sales completely.

The question is when this duopoly battle for
passholders ends, will they then start jacking up pass rates? Or will they keep it the same and just pack the mountains and reduce the quality of the product or start charging for every little thing (i.e. like airlines and flying coach)

In 2015, an adult/unlimited season pass at Stowe was around $1,800. Today, it is about half of that, and includes skiing at Okemo and Sunapee.

Sugarbush, a good comp to Stowe, is currently charging $1,149 for an adult/unlimited (40-64) season pass and $799 for a senior/unlimited season pass (65-79).

Sun Valley is currently selling their adult/unlimited season pass for $2,450.

My sense is that Vail, IKON, Peak,... will continue to raise season pass prices

 

[cantunamunch]

My sense is that Vail, IKON, Peak,... will continue to raise season pass prices

2x

 

[raytseng]

yea in absolute terms itll go up. But will it be the modest $20 per year and meeping with inflation,
Or will it jump to a 10x-20x ratio/break even? The 10x to 20x traditional ratio is what makes sense if you are only considering yourself as a microeconomics supply/demand standalone locals resort. However Vails core backbone is about the entire umbrella of resorts, splittling passholders vs destinstion skies, and long term multiyear which forces their current more layered strategy. Much has been discussed before in prev. threads (or the vr financial reports)
Switching back to simple single resort strategy is proven won't work, all the independents still using that model got gobbled up. I personally don't think itll go back to the 10x to 20x ratio over next 10years and will stay at or well below a 8x ratio.

 

[Monique]

in reality if you now want to ever ski an Alterra or Vail property you basically have to buy a $1000 pass.

Er, what? I paid $669 for an Epic Local pass this season. That's unlimited skiing at A Basin, Keystone, and Breck, with a set number of days + blackouts at Vail, Beaver Creek, and various other locations.

An out of towner could get a nice week+ at Vail or Beaver Creek for that price, as long as they skied off-peak days or simply drove to Breck on those days.

 

[cantunamunch]

Er, what? I paid $669 for an Epic Local pass this season. That's unlimited skiing at A Basin, Keystone, and Breck, with a set number of days + blackouts at Vail, Beaver Creek, and various other locations.

An out of towner could get a nice week+ at Vail or Beaver Creek for that price, as long as they skied off-peak days or simply drove to Breck on those days.

$670 is within the same order of magnitude as $1K - and the added travel + blackout rigmarole raises the $670 to effectively what headybrew said.

 

[Monique]

$670 is within the same order of magnitude as $1K - and the added travel + blackout rigmarole raises the $670 to effectively what headybrew said.

The difference between $670 and $1k is still 33%. I'd say most people consider a 33% discount a pretty good deal. Like, if I saw a sweater I liked for 33% off, I'd be psyched. Then add in that travel should in fact be cheaper if you don't choose peak times, and the crowds will be better, anyway, and it's pretty much a win all around. Unless you have kids, in which case the 33% discount actually represents a much bigger actual dollar figure, though the logistics are more complicated.

Basically I think you're just being cranky.

 

[LKLA]

$670 is within the same order of magnitude as $1K - and the added travel + blackout rigmarole raises the $670 to effectively what headybrew said.

Not sure $600 and change is the same as $1,000 for many people, less so when that gets multiplied by three or four for families.

And if it is, then it is also within the same order of magnitude of many single mountain season pass - Mad River and Magic both with 50 trails are $750 early bird .

Then you have exceptions like Sun Valley, Aspen, Jackson Hole,....which a far from the same order of magnitude