Colorado Vail passes the $200 ticket window price

[raisingarizona]

If we are seriously comparing the prices of visiting Disney land to going skiing then I think it’s safe to say the soul of skiing is officially dead. Seriously, Jesus f-inf Christ. Might as well just stick a fork in this pig. So dead.

 

[Nathanvg]

Not sure I follow your logic - Whether a business has a barrier to entry or not would not seem to have much to do with a consumer having a problem or not with a price increase.

There are indeed massive barriers to opening a new ski area. Massive is likely an understatement. But, that does not mean that there are massive barriers to owning one. Alterra/IKON would be a recent example. Last year there were 472 ski areas in operation in the US. I am sure that if you wanted to get into the business that you could find a few sellers (motivated sellers at that). Jay Peak comes to mind.

If anything, ski areas also have massive barriers to expand / grow / make improvements, which are usually also very costly and time consuming and take a long time to recover the investment. As such you could argue that they have more of a "right" to increase prices.

When there are low barriers to entry and the market has high costs, new businesses are incentivized to enter the market at a lower price. Without that threat, existing businesses are likely to raise prices. The ski industry might have 400+ ski areas but only about 25 true destination ski areas and most of these are part of the Ikon and Epic partnerships.

You might be able to buy a small ski area but there are also high barriers to expansion. Existing ski areas are not raising their prices due to expansion (there has been very limited expansion in the last 15 years). They are raising their prices due to lack of competition and the leverage they have due to being the holder of limited forest service leases.

 

[Monique]

If we are seriously comparing the prices of visiting Disney land to going skiing then I think it’s safe to say the soul of skiing is officially dead. Seriously, Jesus f-inf Christ. Might as well just stick a fork in this pig. So dead.

Dude. We're talking about forms of entertainment made possible entirely by corporate entities. The soul of skiing is off in the backcountry somewhere, probably on cross country skis. If you want to save the soul of skiing, go get some AT bindings or invest in a local bump so that they don't have to sell out. But if you're paying for an Epic or Ikon pass, you're complicit.

 

[Nobody]

Does the insurance cover off the piste but within the ski area? Or even off piste but out? Do they have ski area boundary distinctions?
Insurance is such a gray area. Lack of it...a black, well red area.

Hi James
Not really on topic but since you asked, the insurance offered with the lift ticket, at barely 2.50 euro a day...doesn't cover much, but better than nothing.
It covers the person (even when abroad on a ski trip) against damages done to other people/belongings, offers some medical care coverage, lift tickets reimbursment, and so on...
As for the other question, in Italy there is no "in bound" or "out of boundary" on a ski area. anything off the groomed runs is out of boundary, but I understand that insurances cover accidents occured in the near proximity of a run (either because to ski near a groomed run but out of it is somehow "tolerated" or because one can possibly fall on a groomed run and end up out of it). Medevac private coverage is anyway almost moot point given that ski runs are patrolled by law enforcement (National/County/Local Police and Carabinieri or Guardia di Finanza) and Army (Alpini) mountain branches, or volunteer organizations (like the CNAS, the mountain and caves SAR branch of the Italian Alpine Club, or the Aiut Alpin Dolomites in south Tyrol) that perform SAR duties at a resort and out of it , for free (don't know for how long, given the bad use of this a lot of newbies/never ever are doing).

 

[palikona]

Just a big FU to Vail Resorts. Food prices have become even more outrageous than when I thought they were outrageous 5 years ago. $17.50 for a slice of pizza? Seriously?

 

[dbostedo]

$17.50 for a slice of pizza? Seriously?

Holy cow. Where?

I thought it was expensive 4 years ago at Vail itself, when I paid, I think, $18 for a sandwich, chips, banana, and cookies. The most outrageous price I saw was $6 for Gatorade.

Didn't feel too much different than food prices at concerts or sporting events. For those that just occasionally go to the mountain, perhaps that makes sense?

 

[doc]

Just a big FU to Vail Resorts. Food prices have become even more outrageous than when I thought they were outrageous 5 years ago. $17.50 for a slice of pizza? Seriously?

They'll continue to raise prices until demand falters, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[mikel]

Check the price of this the next time you are at Copper.

 

[palikona]

Holy cow. Where?

I thought it was expensive 4 years ago at Vail itself, when I paid, I think, $18 for a sandwich, chips, banana, and cookies. The most outrageous price I saw was $6 for Gatorade.

Didn't feel too much different than food prices at concerts or sporting events. For those that just occasionally go to the mountain, perhaps that makes sense?

Beaver Creek

 

[dbostedo]

Check the price of this the next time you are at Copper.

Well let's see... those are about $3 at Wal-Mart... so given usual ski resort mark-up, factoring that it's a destination resort but not a really major one, considering that it's in Colorado, and accounting for the specialty nature of it... I'd guess at Copper it's about $486.52.

Am I close?

Seriously, I'd guess it $10 or $12, just based on other beverage mark-ups I've seen.

 

[LKLA]

Holy cow. Where?

I thought it was expensive 4 years ago at Vail itself, when I paid, I think, $18 for a sandwich, chips, banana, and cookies. The most outrageous price I saw was $6 for Gatorade.

Didn't feel too much different than food prices at concerts or sporting events. For those that just occasionally go to the mountain, perhaps that makes sense?

I find it hard to complain about Vail prices when you can still get $5 drafts at the Den in the Mansfield lodge .

It’s not unique to Vail. Prices are similar at comparable resorts, even higher. A soup ($14), burger ($24), salad ($17) and two ice teas ($12) came to over $70 at the Roundhouse in Sun Valley. Btw, the season pass at Sun Valley is $2,200.

 

[RJS]

Hearing about the high price of food at Vail or Beaver Creek makes me appreciate the food at Deer Valley. It's not cheap, though perhaps no more expensive and maybe even a bit less expensive than Vail or Beaver Creek, but it's SO good. It actually feels like a pretty decent value in that you're not being gorged, you're getting what you pay for.

 

[fatbob]

I was reflecting on this in Austria the other weekend. Walk up lift tix in Ischgl, which is probably comfortably in the top 10% OF Euro mega resorts were Euro 54.50. On top of that you have to consider medevac costs - patrol don't scrape you up for free and increasingly use helis for anything where you can't ski away, but people are insured for fairly nominal premiums. Food well it isn't in the bargain range of 5 Euro for a big bowl of pasta but it isn't insane. Maybe a set lunch - soup, main, dessert around 15 is the best value.

So with the benefit of an Ikon pass and brown bag savvy I was comfortably skiing premium resorts in the US cheaper but I'd have been legged over much worse for just turning up on the day as I did in Austria.

 

[Itinerant skier]

The Disney comparisons are intriguing but I'm not sure appropriate for skiing. There has to be a reasonable limit for lift ticket prices in order for the sport to be sustainable. I don't think that issue applies to amusement parks, particularly those owned by the giant rat. Kids have constant in your face online, TV and movie marketing from Disney and to a lesser extent Universal. Parents will continue to spend ridiculous sums to take their kids to those parks. If you look at amusement parks that are less of a destination, but still market a full days fun and adventure, the day pass/ season pass cost ratio is significantly different. At most Six Flags parks, a season pass is available at 1.5-2x the cost of a day ticket.

I don't think skiing as we know it is sustainable with $200 day tickets. Sure, VR and Alterra still have lines at the ticket windows at these prices, but they likely won't forever. EPIC / IKON passes don't appeal to new skiers, even if a relative value (would love to see data on passes sold to those who haven't skied before), and that day ticket + rentals + food gouging still presents a bit of sticker shock.

Personally, I refuse to spend over $100 on a day ticket. Got a 5 day trip to Ogden planned for the second week of Feb. Gonna use the 3 days at PowMow from my Loveland Pass and would like to ski Snowbasin too. If I can find tix for under $100 I will, if not, I'll play for a day at little Nordic Valley. Can I afford the Snowbasin walk up or online tix? Sure. Am I going to spend that? Nope.

 

[LKLA]

The Disney comparisons are intriguing but I'm not sure appropriate for skiing. There has to be a reasonable limit for lift ticket prices in order for the sport to be sustainable. I don't think that issue applies to amusement parks, particularly those owned by the giant rat. Kids have constant in your face online, TV and movie marketing from Disney and to a lesser extent Universal. Parents will continue to spend ridiculous sums to take their kids to those parks. If you look at amusement parks that are less of a destination, but still market a full days fun and adventure, the day pass/ season pass cost ratio is significantly different. At most Six Flags parks, a season pass is available at 1.5-2x the cost of a day ticket.

I don't think skiing as we know it is sustainable with $200 day tickets. Sure, VR and Alterra still have lines at the ticket windows at these prices, but they likely won't forever. EPIC / IKON passes don't appeal to new skiers, even if a relative value (would love to see data on passes sold to those who haven't skied before), and that day ticket + rentals + food gouging still presents a bit of sticker shock.

Personally, I refuse to spend over $100 on a day ticket. Got a 5 day trip to Ogden planned for the second week of Feb. Gonna use the 3 days at PowMow from my Loveland Pass and would like to ski Snowbasin too. If I can find tix for under $100 I will, if not, I'll play for a day at little Nordic Valley. Can I afford the Snowbasin walk up or online tix? Sure. Am I going to spend that? Nope.

Not just Disney, Sea World, Universal Studios...but also the cost of tickets to attend a sporting event, the cost to participate in other sports such as golf,...they are all reasonable comparisons. As it relates to season passes at amusement parks, the percentage of people who visit multiple times (per year) is much, much less than the percentage who ski multiple times per year.

$200 window tickets are sustainable as long as the value is there - conditions, facilities, non-skiing activities.... Neither Vail nor Alterra are looking to cater to the masses. That is not their business plan. They do not want to be the Toyota, Chevy or Volkswagen of the ski industry. They want to be the BMW, Cadillac or Lexus. And the same way those companies are successful in the auto industry, there is no reason why Vail and Alterra cannot not be successful in their industry.

Of course someone who has not skied before is not likely to be looking to buy a season pass. Vail and Alterra are focused on folks buying a pass after trying the sport for a season. When they become "skiers" and start skiing 6-12+ days per season, start spending money on equipment, start skiing with family and friends, perhaps even buy a ski house...in other words when their commitment to the sport grows. After all, a season pass is basically predicated on that - a commitment to the sport.

Both Vail and Alterra have iconic enough mountains that there will always be demand for window tickets, either from folks with other season passes or casual skiers who do not have a season pass. The same way there are plenty of folks paying for one day Yankee or Lakers tickets rather than buying season tickets.

You seem to have figured it out. Ski at non Vail or Alterra mountains and you are likely not to encounter any of the concerns you bring up. You have over 420 mountains to choose from! Going backto my car analogy, you don't need to spend the money on a Mercedes to get a nice car. You don't need to spend the money at a Vail or Alterra resort to enjoy have a great skiing experience.

By the way, walk-up window prices seem steep just about everywhere. I just looked at Killington and a ticket for Saturday is $100 even if you buy it online ahead of time - their single mountain unlimited adult season pass is now $1,200. Jiminy Peak, a much smaller mountain, is selling their an online advanced ticket for this Saturday for $80 - their single-mountain unlimited adult season pass for $1,050. Neither is owned by Vail or Alterra.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Liftopia Saturday January 26

Smugs $61
Ragged $60
MRG $75
Arapahoe $85
Solitude $75

 

[LKLA]

Liftopia Saturday January 26

Smugs $61
Ragged $60
MRG $75
Arapahoe $85
Solitude $75

There you go!

Burke for $55! Plenty of places to choose from where day tickets cost much less than $200.

Btw, Stratton is $110 on Liftopia

 

[coops]

That is totally insane.. Just totally, and utterly insane.

If you want to know how insane....

compare with Val D'Isere lift prices - and NOTE these INCLUDE Tignes. and is the high season prices:
https://www.valdisere.com/en/ski/ski-passes/

It's 59 euro per day (=$67, plus insurance let's just call it $70...),
if you buy for 6 days you're paying 294 Euro... so basically 6 for the price of 5, more or less, works out at $55 per day (!)
( btw free if you're <5 years old or >75)
and for families
"Family of 4 (or more) with at least two children under 21* : everyone enjoys the children rate: 20% off two for everyone !
E.g.: €228 for a 6-day lift pass for each family member."

Val D'Isere & Tignes Lifts:-
2 Funiculars
2 Cable Cars
7 Gondolas
41 Chairlifts
29 drag lifts - mostly of the Poma button type, a few T bars on the glaciers.
Some magic carpets etc for beginners

And at the valley level there is a free & excellent 'bendy' bus at very frequent intervals til very late stopping all the way from Fornet down to la Daille

And the skiiing...
If you haven't been or seen the piste map here's a link... two glaciers and all this :-
https://www.valdisere.com/en/now/piste-map/?top=0&tab=tab1

 

[djetok]

Er, what? I paid $669 for an Epic Local pass this season. That's unlimited skiing at A Basin, Keystone, and Breck, with a set number of days + blackouts at Vail, Beaver Creek, and various other locations.

An out of towner could get a nice week+ at Vail or Beaver Creek for that price, as long as they skied off-peak days or simply drove to Breck on those days.

This is what we did this year. 3 trips to cb so far. We are going to breck weekend after next, plus a week at CB during spring break we will certainly get 2 more additional trips in as well. They obviously get us on food and lodging. Elevation hotel where we stayed actually had reasonable food prices for a ski resort

 

[Monique]

They obviously get us on food and lodging.

FYI, Breck is fine with brown bagging in all the cafeteria-style places; obviously the sit down restaurants don't want that, but otherwise, groceries can get you pretty far. No microwaves, though =/