Vail pass sales up 15% for 2019/2020 ski season

[Wasatchman]

The 15% increase in season pass sales that Vail reported with their quarterly results excludes the Peak resorts acquisition which was just completed.

I was surprised to hear Vail's pass sales grew that much as I thought IKON might have impacted their pass growth more this year. I would assume IKON pass sales will be up even more than Vail since that product is so early in its infancy. The overall ski industry is not growing nearly that much, so I'm assuming the smaller mom and pop resorts are getting absolutely trounced by Vail/Alterra.

 

[Bill Talbot]

I'm sorry to hear that.
Boycott the monster if possible!

 

[SSSdave]

There are fair numbers of less than ten days each winter skiers who in the past have only ever been walk up skiers that probably have done the math concluding they might as well buy a pass given the insane walk up prices. Also one can see long lines at resort bases with those people as they watch those of us with passes walk right onto lifts each morning that further makes them shake their heads.

 

[Wasatchman]

There are fair numbers of less than ten days each winter skiers who in the past have only ever been walk up skiers that probably have done the math concluding they might as well buy a pass given the insane walk up prices. Also one can see long lines at resort bases with those people as they watch those of us with passes walk right onto lifts each morning that further makes them shake their heads.

Time will tell. What makes me wonder though is that the walk up prices have been crazy for a while now. Not just last year. So I would have thought many of those skiers had long converted to buying a pass. At the same time, last year's walk up prices were some kind of crazy. Approaching $200 in a lot of cases. So you have a point even though I'm still suspecting the smaller unafiliated resorts are taking a hiding.

 

[dbostedo]

Approaching $200 in a lot of cases.

This year's Saturday, mid-season, holiday weekend, one-day walk-up price (Feb. 15th) at Vail is $219. Or $189 if you pre-buy online.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I'm sorry to hear that.
Boycott the monster if possible!

As a VR passholder that enjoys skiing Breckenridge, I have to ask: Why?

 

[Doug Briggs]

Time will tell. What makes me wonder though is that the walk up prices have been crazy for a while now. Not just last year. So I would have thought many of those skiers had long converted to buying a pass. At the same time, last year's walk up prices were some kind of crazy. Approaching $200 in a lot of cases. So you have a point even though I'm still suspecting the smaller unafiliated resorts are taking a hiding.

Virtually no one pays the walk up price. You only need to use the internet to buy passes at VR at substantially less then the walk up price. I'll try to remember to post the prices that are available after 10/13.







We should be encouraging people to ski, not scaring them away.

 

[Ken_R]

This year's Saturday, mid-season, holiday weekend, one-day walk-up price (Feb. 15th) at Vail is $219. Or $189 if you pre-buy online.

Those prices are crazy. Its even more expensive than a one day pass for Disney World ($110~$165)

Vail really changed the game. They forced people, even one or 2 week a year skiers, to commit to a season pass. So Vail had all this money way before even the first snows of the season and that gave them access to capital which allowed expansions, improvements, buyouts etc. The rest is history. The industry will never go back to the way it was. It is what it is.

 

[dbostedo]

Vail really changed the game.

Yes, and the other big names have followed suit. Aspen on the same holiday Saturday is $184 online (they don't mention the walk-up price, but I'd guess $200+).

But as @Doug Briggs noted, very, very few people actually pay walk-up prices. And at the big resorts, I'd doubt many people pay single-day prices of any sort.

 

[cantunamunch]

Hmmm, I wonder how they actually did the "exclusion" of Peaks Resorts? Did they not count any names that had bought Peaks Passes? Did they exclude names from previous records?

I don't really believe that 15% increase doesn't include former skiers of those resorts. And, unless they do another series of acquisitions, I don't think that kind of a jump will be seen again.

 

[SSSdave]

Virtually no one pays the walk up price. You only need to use the internet to buy passes at VR at substantially less then the walk up price. I'll try to remember to post the prices that are available after 10/13..

You obviously meant: Virtually no one pays the walk up price that bothers to do their homework. Many of course don't bother and probably don't even know what prices are until they walk up. We all know people that don't tend to be organized or ever plan. That is why there are such long lines weekend mornings at the Heavenly Gondola ticket windows. Years ago in the sub $100 era that probably was just a shrug. However for infrequent skiers that haven't been paying attention, shrugs are increasingly shocks.

 

[dovski]

As a VR passholder that enjoys skiing Breckenridge, I have to ask: Why?

I am actually taking a break from all Vail resorts this year not so much a boycott but more on principle to send them a message. Very bad experiences with Vail customer service at Whistler have convinced me to invest my ski dollars at resorts that appreciate my business and go that extra mile. We also had some friends who had a equally bad experience with Vail and they are doing the same thing.

Makes me sad as they own some great resorts that I really enjoy skiing, but they are missing out on those little customer service details that making visiting their resorts a pleasant experience. Spent to much time talking to them only to have their customer service essentially make their problem, my problem so I am voting with my dollars and investing in trips to Aspen, Mt. Bachelor, Banff, some Boyne Resorts and possibly a trip to Europe.

If enough people get frustrated and do the same it sends an economic message to Vail and they will have to re-examine how they treat their customers and make it a personal vs corporate relationship. I really hope they improve as I would love to go back to Whistler and many of their other resorts. I had many good experiences with Vail in previous years, but last year hit that threshold for me and several of my friends where we saw a pattern emerge that was not good.

 

[4ster]

The industry will never go back to the way it was. It is what it is.

But what will it become when the Chiefs decide to cash out?

But as @Doug Briggs noted, very, very few people actually pay walk-up prices. And at the big resorts, I'd doubt many people pay single-day prices of any sort.

Then how do they bring new participants in to sustain the future of their business? I think they are only interested in today's bottom line

However for infrequent skiers that haven't been paying attention, shrugs are increasingly shocks.

And they will be shocked out of ever returning

 

[Magi]

No one is attributing the bump in sales to being the year after a great snow year?

 

[Wasatchman]

Hmmm, I wonder how they actually did the "exclusion" of Peaks Resorts? Did they not count any names that had bought Peaks Passes? Did they exclude names from previous records?

I don't really believe that 15% increase doesn't include former skiers of those resorts. And, unless they do another series of acquisitions, I don't think that kind of a jump will be seen again.

All Vail really had to do was simply count epic pass sales. Peak had separately been selling Peak passes that Vail now acquired. But they didn't include those Peak passes they just acquired when indicating epic pass sales are up 15 percent. Doesn't mean that 15 percent doesn't include skiers who formerly skied those resorts. They are simply saying our Epic pass sales are up 15 percent this year and doesn't include Peak Pass that they just acquired a few weeks ago. Vail is now allowing those Peak pass holders to to pay and upgrade to Epic pass. But that process is just starting now.

One thing Vail is doing differently this year is enabling people to buy epic day passes. If you buy these ore season, then they are around $100/day. But you have to buy those preseason.

So agree, Vail has changed the game and want skiers to commit the money upfront or punitively charge a lot if you buy walk-up or via Internet during the season. $200 a day is brutal. Out of curiosity, I asked someone at a ticket window last year if anyone actually pays that price and they told me that I'd be surprised

 

[Jim Kenney]

One relevant anecdote about window ticket prices that I picked up from personal experience is a conversation I had about 3 years ago with a guy at Vail while we were riding a chairlift there. He looked pretty well-heeled and somehow it came up that he paid full price at the window that day for his ticket. I was thinking this guy may be wealthy and makes a nice income, but he is not very savvy about skiing. Then he went on to explain that he had made the decision to go on this ski trip at the last minute based on good ski conditions and an opening in his work schedule AND that he was able to use hotel reward points to stay for free in a very nice slopeside property at Vail. He also mentioned frequent flyer miles had reduced the cost of his airfare. Suddenly, I was not so savvy in comparison.

 

[Wasatchman]

No one is attributing the bump in sales to being the year after a great snow year?

Quite possible that has helped. A lot of people on the mountain have told me that a bad snow year does have an impact the following year, so a good snow year would presumably help for this ski season. The phenomenon reportedly hurt Vail last year. They had good early season snow conditions last season at a lot of resorts, but people didn't plan trips and get the visitation early season because they were staying away based on how bad the prior year was. That coupled with the extra weather related costs caused them to miss earnings expectations. I was thinking extra competition from Alterra may have been a bigger factor than Vail was leading on and they were using that as an excuse when they were reporting that, but now I'm not so sure given strong season pass sales this year.

 

[Daniel]

The 15% increase in season pass sales that Vail reported with their quarterly results excludes the Peak resorts acquisition which was just completed.

I was surprised to hear Vail's pass sales grew that much as I thought IKON might have impacted their pass growth more this year. I would assume IKON pass sales will be up even more than Vail since that product is so early in its infancy. The overall ski industry is not growing nearly that much, so I'm assuming the smaller mom and pop resorts are getting absolutely trounced by Vail/Alterra.

Last season Solitude sold (approximately) 10,000 Ikon passes. This season, through Labor Day weekend, they sold (approximately) 12,000 Ikon passes with many weeks remaining to boost sales figures even more. Last season was the best year for snowfall totals since 2010-11. A strong national economy and an extremely vibrant local economy, along with locals' memories of plentiful snowfall last winter, certainly are instrumental in propelling those sales numbers even higher.

 

[cantunamunch]

All Vail really had to do was simply count epic pass sales. Peak had separately been selling Peak passes that Vail now acquired. But they didn't include those Peak passes they just acquired when indicating epic pass sales are up 15 percent. Doesn't mean that 15 percent doesn't include skiers who formerly skied those resorts. They are simply saying our Epic pass sales are up 15 percent this year and doesn't include Peak Pass that they just acquired a few weeks ago. Vail is now allowing those Peak pass holders to to pay and upgrade to Epic pass. But that process is just starting now.

Yes, that is exactly what I suspected they'd done - all the peeps who signed petitions against Peaks came in and bought Epic once the Sackler family shadow was removed, and they got counted as part of that 15%.

 

[Wasatchman]

Yes, that is exactly what I suspected they'd done - all the peeps who signed petitions against Peaks came in and bought Epic once the Sackler family shadow was removed, and they got counted as part of that 15%.

The acquisition was announced on July 22. Your theory is interesting and not something I had considered. However, based on the earnings Vail said they are expecting from the Peak acquisition this season, it doesn't appear that their Peak pass sales were weak. So I am guessing that your theory is not really driving it. But time will tell.

If IKON resorts/partners have another crowded ski season but with mediocre snow conditions, I'd expect many will claim it's last year's snow conditions that drove pass sales up this year and we will really need to wait another year to see what impact Alterra has really had. And hence we can have the Alterra debate on PugSki rage on for well into the foreseeable future