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Upper Body Rotation in Turn Initiation

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McEl

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This separate thread is now mercifully separated from TKD’s otherwise good thread. This thread can give BBB’s concept the attention it deserves, that is, full discussion of the pros and cons of this movement in different contexts: its effect on beginners on Greens, on intermediates on Blues, on advanced/ experts on Blacks, and its effect on kids thus taught when they try out for the race program at their local hills. The teaching model advanced by BBB carries significant repercussions. With these repercussions in mind, I think BBB should directly answer Markojp’s question:

Baw, at what point do you help them expand their range and move to alternatives a la turning from the feet (tipping, steering), etc... and move away from shoulder rotation to initiate?

and I encourage BBB to post videos from his ski-teaching resort area showing the outcomes for

a) the intermediate on Blue slopes

b) the advanced skier on Black slopes, and

c) difficult terrain such as bumps, deep powder, slush and ice.

To that I will add my question, “How do I make short radius turns with my shoulders?”
and I will add the caution,
New skiers, Beware.



Insight into and discussion of BBB’s model can be found in what appears to be an Australian-based website:

http://forums.ski.com.au/xf/threads/initiate-a-turn-without-edging-ski-like-a-surfer.71321/

The BBB concept is stated as:

To achieve the essence of the Bel Turn, make following exercise:
From traverse, start rotating head and shoulders towards the new turn and lock the rotation as your skis go flat. Concentrate on not producing the slightest hint of extending or retracting your feet vertically and just allow your body to stay perfectly centered. Think of albertrosses slowly wheeling overhead.. [end quote]

#84 bawbawbel,Jun 23, 2015
 
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T-Square

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The upper body move was needed on old equipment. I grew up (well sort of) with long straight stiff wood sticks on my feet. I had leather boots that came up and just covered my ankles. Very little support. This was state of the art. You had to muscle the skis to get them to point where you wanted to go. All practical turns were skidded, stepped or stemmed. Upper body rotation helped get the ski around.

Today the equipment has changed drastically. Boots support the foot and ankle. They allow the transfer of forces and subtle movement to the skis. Skis now have built in turns with their side cut. The flexibility of the ski allows it to bend easily when put on edge. Modern ski techniques take advantage of these improvements and allow us to ski with less effort. "More efficiently." Massive twisting motions with wind ups are not needed. What is needed is skiing into and out of an appropriate counter. (Sometimes referred to as 'facing down the hill.')

Teach what you will teach. When a student learns to flail their upper body around they will stall out at low level intermediate skiing. Then they will come to instructors like me to help them unlearn those inefficient and ineffective movements.
 
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bawbawbel

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Thank you, Terry, for isolating this discussion, although I had meant to eventually focus on the simplicity of TDK's counteracting. I am a bit worried about the extension here of my beginners' exercise directly into advanced turns. It should be called "Anticipation 101".
For instance, it has no application anywhere in a pure carved turn.
But without it I see a possible painful process ahead for otherwise advanced skiers whose whole world has been focused on foot/leg/sidecut interaction. Can anyone here discuss anticipation without invoking a separated hip (and hence upper body) rotation ?

James said there was error in my description:
"bawbawbel said:
This is the most important part of the technique. While still in a traverse we use upper/lower body separation to get an upper body rotation in the direction of the proposed turn going. It is a phantom move which turns the skis only when we lock the upper and lower body together. (Upper body stays square with the skis from this point as we lean into the turn ). I used to call this uncoiling "blocking"
bawbawbel said:
"The upper body must not rotate RELATIVE to the direction of the skis as the turn begins."

Good. I was trying to stress that no further upper body action is required or desired once the turn begins. ("Wait Phase")
It should be :
(Upper body will then rotate the skis if they are sufficiently unedged, but it should not go past body square to the skis. )
and
"The upper body must not be further be rotated relative to the direction of the skis as the turn begins."
I was surprised to see Vladimir Putin skiing quite nicely using this rotation. Then I found that Jean Claude Killy skied with him for 4 years as advisor before the Sochi Olympics.
A bit like in TDK's demo, there was a fascinating video of old vs new style as Killy and unnamed dropped in from a cat track.
Unnamed turned slightly uphill to set his edges , pole planted downhill and decambered up and around.
Whereas Killy, in a single movement, anticipated and flowed down the slope. Put his picture on my wall..
 
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James

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When shaped skis came along, how much trouble was it for you to convert over to initiating with your feet and legs rather than using all that upper body rotational momentum? Do you remember the process? Did it happen slowly and unconsciously, or was it a deliberate conversion? Was it easy?
Well Kneale already answered, but I'll throw in my two cents from learning a couple decades after he started. Early 70's , but mostly mid to late 70's. I never went through the upper body rotation phase afaik. First tracks on wooden skis might not have had edges or had screwed on edges, bindings were bear traps. Possibly they were still teaching rotation. Didn't matter I went straight.

Later the general flow was snow plow, stem christie, parallel, wedel. I don't know if that was official and it would be interesting to hear Kneale's take. "Can you wedel" was a fairly common question to gauge ability, ie "expert."

I really don't remember the stem stage as I went through it very quickly. I played hockey. I do remember lessons being following a French speaking guy around on a quite difficult trail. Which was short. That's how we learned. Most instruction was done by ex racers at least where I was. I'd say if there was one characteristic that stood out and persisted for me it was the A-frame. You got that outside ski, called downhill then, on edge early and worked it.

Later the technique woud be that plus bend the tip, power the middle, and slam the tail. -If one was skiing with energy. And it took a lot. So it was ball of foot, arch, heel.

I missed most of the 80's and early 90's. Didn't ski at all '82-90.
I think the skiing demoed by Jens Husted and Chris Ryman in Sybervision which is 1992, is about the height of straight ski technique. Really very modern. Little difference with today. Probably comes down to letting the ski work its arc.

@Philpug and @Tricia are friends with Chris Ryman today I think.
 

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Thank you, Terry, for isolating this discussion, although I had meant to eventually focus on the simplicity of TDK's counteracting. I am a bit worried about the extension here of my beginners' exercise directly into advanced turns. It should be called "Anticipation 101".
For instance, it has no application anywhere in a pure carved turn.
But without it I see a possible painful process ahead for otherwise advanced skiers whose whole world has been focused on foot/leg/sidecut interaction. Can anyone here discuss anticipation without invoking a separated hip (and hence upper body) rotation ?

James said there was error in my description:
"bawbawbel said:
This is the most important part of the technique. While still in a traverse we use upper/lower body separation to get an upper body rotation in the direction of the proposed turn going. It is a phantom move which turns the skis only when we lock the upper and lower body together. (Upper body stays square with the skis from this point as we lean into the turn ). I used to call this uncoiling "blocking"
bawbawbel said:
"The upper body must not rotate RELATIVE to the direction of the skis as the turn begins."

Good. I was trying to stress that no further upper body action is required or desired once the turn begins. ("Wait Phase")
It should be :
(Upper body will then rotate the skis if they are sufficiently unedged, but it should not go past body square to the skis. )
and
"The upper body must not be further be rotated relative to the direction of the skis as the turn begins."
I was surprised to see Vladimir Putin skiing quite nicely using this rotation. Then I found that Jean Claude Killy skied with him for 4 years as advisor before the Sochi Olympics.
A bit like in TDK's demo, there was a fascinating video of old vs new style as Killy and unnamed dropped in from a cat track.
Unnamed turned slightly uphill to set his edges , pole planted downhill and decambered up and around.
Whereas Killy, in a single movement, anticipated and flowed down the slope. Put his picture on my wall..
Trying to sort out the posts from others and your words it would help if you try to use the quote and multi quote features.
If you need a tutorial on using the quote and multi quote features I'll be happy to help.
 

Tricia

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@Philpug and @Tricia are friends with Chris Ryman today I think.
We are. In fact, he was instrumental in the planning of our wedding!
He's an incredibly smooth skier. Any time he wants to give me a tip, I say, "thank you"
 

Magi

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...and a second thought here....
I recently went to my first PSIA National Academy, a one-week instructional event held at Snowbird, Utah. I skied with PSIA's best that week. At one point (in chopped up cruddy snow) my group leader had me lead the new turn with my new outside arm, as seen in the video James just posted.

So there you go; using the upper body to motor a turn is certainly not dead.

I'll throw out there, that a friend of mine taught upper body rotation for his PSIA-RM L3 teach, and he passed it.

The reason Upper body rotation is not preferred in modern recreational skiing, is that it's generally less efficient than using leg inputs. The reason it was preferred on less shaped skis back several decades ago, is that the skis required a big move, and that was a performant/efficient way to get it.

Rotating the upper body is a valid move and highly desirable in a variety of situations that require a big move, or a large input.
In my view, it should certainly not be the only move (or the first move taught), but it *is* a move in the quiver.
 
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bawbawbel

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I'll throw out there, that a friend of mine taught upper body rotation for his PSIA-RM L3 teach, and he passed it.

The reason Upper body rotation is not preferred in modern recreational skiing, is that it's generally less efficient than using leg inputs. The reason it was preferred on less shaped skis back several decades ago, is that the skis required a big move, and that was a performant/efficient way to get it.

Rotating the upper body is a valid move and highly desirable in a variety of situations that require a big move, or a large input.
In my view, it should certainly not be the only move (or the first move taught), but it *is* a move in the quiver.

Upper body rotation is less efficient in some aspects, but we teach it as the early way towards strong anticipation.
Understanding, observing and practicing anticipation is a complete blind spot with many skiers that I try to interact with, to their detriment. For instance, they see counteracting as just a way to get your body lined up for the next turn. The dynamics of it escapes them completely.

Also, the rotation to produce a "still upper body" is ineffective in this regard if it lags the leg action. Timing is everything.

Sorry, Tricia, I should think more before posting.
 

LiquidFeet

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Upper body rotation is less efficient in some aspects, but we teach it as the early way towards strong anticipation. Understanding, observing and practicing anticipation is a complete blind spot with many skiers that I try to interact with, to their detriment. For instance, they see counteracting as just a way to get your body lined up for the next turn. The dynamics of it escapes them completely.
Also, the rotation to produce a "still upper body" is ineffective in this regard if it lags the leg action. Timing is everything.
Sorry, Tricia, I should think more before posting.


1. So there's "skiing into counter" and "counter-acting." They are not the same, but both involve facing the outside of the turn one is making.
"Counter" is part of both of those because the upper body faces one way while the skis point and travel in the other direction. One direction "counters" the other.

2. And then there is "anticipation." Anticipation refers to what's happening at the very start of the new turn; the upper body points downhill before the skis do, "anticipating" the direction the skis will soon be pointing.
The difference between them is determined by which turn the term refers to.
"Counter" refers to the current turn, and happens while the turn is in progress.
"Anticipation" refers to the soon-to-be new turn, and happens before the new turn starts.

3. Counter and anticipation are related. If one is "countered" at the end of the old turn, one's upper body will be facing downhill more than the skis.
If the skier holds onto that "counter" instead of squaring up between turns, that "counter" switches to "anticipation" as the new turn becomes the focus.
This verbal switch happens without any change in how the upper body and skis point. It's a conceptual switch.

4. And then there's "upper body rotation," an initiation movement. Ski instructors who use the term "rotation" usually mean "upper body rotation."
That's what the guy in red in your short gif is doing; the skier turns the upper body first in order to start the new turn; this turning is meant to drag the skis around.

Here's a question, as I'm curious to understand: @bawbawbel
At your ski school, do your instructors teach skiers to face the outside of the turn, "countered," at any point, in any turn?
 
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JESinstr

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JP, I'm not sure this guy is serious.

Yes, UBR works. It's one of the easiest ways to get a beginner to make reliable turns. It works well when people are in the back seat. It works well with beginners who are making slow turns on nearly flat terrain. Why? Because it's so powerful. UBR is a big move, easy to do, and overpowers any of the normal issues that unskilled skiers have. It's a sure win.

But turning the upper body to yank the skis around is a horrible way to learn to make one's first turns. What people learn that first few hours sticks with them forever.

Why is it so bad? Because the upper body has a lot of mass/weight to it, and turning it back and forth will throw the skier out of balance. It takes a lot of work to stop that turning and make the torso with all its weight turn the other direction. It's jerky. Maintaining balance becomes difficult with all this movement of the upper body, especially when this habit accompanies leaning in and skiing from the back seat, which it often does because it's so powerful and allows skiers who are back and in to still make turns.

Observe any lower intermediate skier trying to ski bumps, any bumps, using upper body rotation to motor their turns. They might get one or two turns before falling. Observe any lower intermediate groomer skier on a hard snow blue run using UBR: you'll see their tails wash out in the bottom of every turn as they sling the skis around and then brace for the inevitable diagonal downhill skid. There are lots of ways to get stuck on the terminal intermediate plateau; this is one of the worst.

Bawbawbel, what say you? Are you messing with us?

LF, you are spot on with your analysis.

The modern shaped ski is designed to create circular travel, not to rotate. An essential ingredient for circular travel is the "need for speed". In skiing, the speed for circular (centripetal) travel is provided by the slope and the constant pull of gravity. My quick rant... nothing new right? ogwink

At the beginner level, whether we understand/accept it or not, velocity is the "villain" at the heart of what we instructors have to cope with. The conundrum it creates is substantial as you described above. With beginners, we keep velocity low for reasons of safety and student fears. Combine that with the reality that we only have so much time to create success and one can see why rotation is emphasized and often misused

As simple as it sounds IMO, the instructor is doing a disservice to the customer if rotation is taught in a way that results in a pushing the heels vs steering the fronts. Watching the video on page 1 is there any doubt that rotating the upper body induces rotation from the rear? Many times in frustration, I have found myself telling the student to push out their heals knowing is was the wrong thing to say but the personal drive to see ski direction changed took priority over getting it done right. It becomes a problem if the student leaves the lesson with the seeds of that "push the heels" motor pattern planted in their brain and nervous system. And this situation only gets worse because pushing the heels is instinctive, it is the path of least resistance, it is the way we use our skis as a break and is easily aided and abetted by upper body movements.

Ending rant:
Rotation + speed = skidding. IMO skidding is a transitional no man's land. If you are skidding you are either headed for the "slow line" (circular travel) or breaking. Regardless, rotation is a fact of life and I totally agree with the arguments you pose above.

Finally we need to do something about using the word "TURN" As many of us profess, there is a polar difference between turning the skis and letting the skis turn you.


Good to see you here on Pugski.
 

LiquidFeet

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I too have told students to push the heels out, desperate to get that first turn during the short, short lesson so they will have some semblance of success and maybe the possibility of some joy for the rest of the day. I feel very guilty every time. I've never had them turn their shoulders in the direction they want to go, though. It's not worse than pushing heels out. It's just different. I should try that. Maybe I should just give up and use both from the beginning, to get more turns going and more mileage in that one-two hour lesson, so my adult beginners might be likely to enjoy their day and come back for a second try at skiing. Both of these turn mechanisms are fault-ridden, desperate solutions to a lose-lose situation.

Why is it lose-lose? Why am I desperate? Because the situation consists of too-short lessons, too-steep first-turn-terrain with no run-out, fear-inducing traffic in the beginner zone, groups too-large with no hope of a split, and loose-fitting boots. I wonder if I left anything out?

I hadn't thought that turning the shoulders first makes the pivot point be in front of the arch of the foot, thus the tails get "pushed." Is that what you are implying?
 

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I was encouraged by an instructor to read through this thread and digest it to get a good idea about different thoughts on ski teaching, technique and progressions, both in teaching a student and in the years that we've grown in our teaching methods.
Admittedly I only instructed for a short period of time but I was looking at these posts thinking....most of this doesn't make sense on contemporary equipment.
Then I read @mdf's posts and knew that I was correct.


Initiating from the shoulders was already considered wrong when I learned in the early 1970's. Heel pushing was the problem I learned with that I later had to get rid of. I have a book from around then titled something like "How to become an expert recreational skier." I'd look through it, but I think it is upstairs (a long journey on crutches).

Anybody have a rough timeline of major changes in ski technique?

Ok, looks like starting with the shoulders went out around 1957.
https://www.si.com/vault/1957/11/25/605259/the-new-way-to-ski
Sounds some familiar notes: "style of the world's best racers." "Cuts out tiring..."

@bawbawbel the photo of Stein's C in your avatar was beautiful and something everyone wanted to achieve back in the day but its not how we want to, nor should, ski today.
Did you post the image in your first post as an example of a good move?
shoo4-gif.24577

I would never look at that person and say, "I want to ski like that."

I've spent far too much time trying to get a quiet upper body, there is no way you could ever convince me that upper body rotation in turn initiation is something I want to achieve.
 
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bawbawbel

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1. So there's "skiing into counter" and "counter-acting." They are not the same, but both involve facing the outside of the turn one is making.
"Counter" is part of both of those because the upper body faces one way while the skis point and travel in the other direction. One direction "counters" the other.

2. And then there is "anticipation." Anticipation refers to what's happening at the very start of the new turn; the upper body points downhill before the skis do, "anticipating" the direction the skis will soon be pointing.
The difference between them is determined by which turn the term refers to.
"Counter" refers to the current turn, and happens while the turn is in progress.
"Anticipation" refers to the soon-to-be new turn, and happens before the new turn starts.

3. Counter and anticipation are related. If one is "countered" at the end of the old turn, one's upper body will be facing downhill more than the skis.
If the skier holds onto that "counter" instead of squaring up between turns, that "counter" switches to "anticipation" as the new turn becomes the focus.
This verbal switch happens without any change in how the upper body and skis point. It's a conceptual switch.

4. And then there's "upper body rotation," an initiation movement. Ski instructors who use the term "rotation" usually mean "upper body rotation."
That's what the guy in red in your short gif is doing; the skier turns the upper body first in order to start the new turn; this turning is meant to drag the skis around.

My question, as I'm curious to understand: @bawbawbel, at your ski school, do your instructors teach skiers to face the outside of the turn, "countered," at any point, in any turn?

Ow! You people tear at posts. Of course, that is what is expected in these nitty gritty topics. :) . I am used to producing badly worded insights which nobody read except to trigger giggle responses.
"My" instructors are unpaid rabble who produce different versions of my carefully considered progressions. But the underlying theme fascinates them.

Here goes stuff in summary:
The beginner drill I have posted is to get them started with a slow motion enhancement of the foot based turns learn from dads or official ski schools.
Mambo anticipation is next, anticipation timing cannot be incorrect as it is generated throughout the whole linked turn.
Eventually, when proper timing is achieved , it will lock in very early and enable them to load the top of their turns rather than coast them.
"Counter" vs Anticipation is more than a conceptual switch. "Skiing Into Counter" has come to just mean adopting an upper body POSITION as the turn progresses ,
whereas Anticipation needs a more active deliberate "coiling" and timed "stopping" of the coil.
As an instruction, "Facing the outside of the turn" is redundant. The slope will ensure that this happens
"Pushing with the heels" involves deliberate loss of centering, and can be avoided.
Indeed, as I previously noted, if rotation is transfered while inclining, the tips are loaded while the body remains centered.
 

Tico

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If you're skiing real 50*+ (which means your pack touches the snow), in control, you're likely beginning the saute-pedale with a strong torso twist and pole plant, and ending with the same. But it seems an odd way to turn a modern ski on flat terrain.
 

JESinstr

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I too have told students to push the heels out, desperate to get that first turn during the short, short lesson so they will have some semblance of success and maybe the possibility of some joy for the rest of the day. I feel very guilty every time. I've never had them turn their shoulders in the direction they want to go, though. It's not worse than pushing heels out. It's just different. I should try that. Maybe I should just give up and use both from the beginning, to get more turns going and more mileage in that one-two hour lesson, so my adult beginners might be likely to enjoy their day and come back for a second try at skiing. Both of these turn mechanisms are fault-ridden, desperate solutions to a lose-lose situation.

Why is it lose-lose? Why am I desperate? Because the situation consists of too-short lessons, too-steep first-turn-terrain with no run-out, fear-inducing traffic in the beginner zone, groups too-large with no hope of a split, and loose-fitting boots. I wonder if I left anything out?

I hadn't thought that turning the shoulders first makes the pivot point be in front of the arch of the foot, thus the tails get "pushed." Is that what you are implying?


I wouldn't assume that turning the shoulders makes the pivot point forward of the arch. The upper body is so far away from the feet anything can happen and happen quickly.

Regardless, pushing the heels out or rotating the upper mass.... both are not the right way to develop circular travel. They are however an appropriate way to develop a braking action. And this is what is happening in the video Baw supplied. Take a look again at the video. The rotation of the upper body does indeed help trigger the circular travel process but the last frame is the last frame because it is then and there that the ability to continue the circular travel stops, hence the resultant skidded braking action.

I have been thinking about trying the following next season. A very effective drill for advanced skiers is the pole dragging drill where you try to maintain consistent tip pressure between the surface and both poles. I am thinking about bringing this to my beginner lessons. My theory is that if I give the student a set of "training wheels"... a set of tactile receptors with the ground, they can then focus more directly on what it take to steer the fronts. They will also have a constant sense of where their hands are so I don't have constantly scream "HANDS IN FRONT!!!". Don't know if it will work or not but we will see.
 

LiquidFeet

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@JESinstr, have you ever taken an aerobics class? Or a line-dancing class?
In both of these there are movements that involve both the feet and the hands as the whole body moves in space (as in skiing).
Learning a new movement pattern in these classes involves learning something new with the hands and with the feet while traveling across the room.
Usually, students need to get the feet to do the new thing first, as they do need to keep up with the across-the-room travel.
Then they add the new hands movement.


My point is that most people can't focus consciously on doing something new with the feet and the hands at the same time. I've had difficulty using the pole drag if I also ask people to do something else with feet/legs at the same time. Focusing on the pole drag alone fills up their conscious brains. YMMV, however. Please report back!
 

Tricia

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This thread has run its course.
 
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