• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

"Unlearning" a movement pattern and replacing it ... success stories

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
@razie, I ask these questions because I've seen skiers who make high level race turns with excellent mechanics totally fall apart when asked to make the flat-ski slow turns that are necessary when teaching recreational skiers. These racers can revert to lower level intermediate mechancs (aft and inside, totally out of balance) when tasked with the unfamiliar movement patterns of slow speed skiing.

Practice doing slow turns on low pitch terrain with flattish skis is necessary to pass a PSIA Level II skiing exam, and the examiners do look closely at the mechanics. I would think CSIA does the same thing. Your guy's race turns are not going to impress a CSIA examiner evaluating instructors on their ability to teach skiing at the client's level. Could this be the cause of his failure to pass the exam?
Sorry, missed that. No, he was failed at a race coach course, the facilitators were level 3 coaches, but newly minted CSIA 4 examiners. Apparently even given an athlete of this level, they were not able to make him show them what they needed to see from a level 2 race coach, over 4 days on snow. That for me says more about their skills as coaches, than about the athlete. That was a 4 day course, not just a simple exam.

@Tony S got it right. Other racers and coaches at our club are still laughing at that assessment.

What's worse, is that he was lined up to take the level 2 CSIA the following week, to learn "the soft side of the business" as well and learn all that slow speed steering they teach there ogwink which he'll never get near again, after this experience.

The reason I brought the CSIA angle was because they failed all the racers at that race coach course and apparently told them to get some lessons from other CSIA level 4s specifically, in order to pass that course. I found that somewhat disturbing... but that seems to be Ontario for you these days. I remembered it more correct than political, back when I was going through these ;)
 
Last edited:

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,304
I guess we'll never know.

Seriously though, I doubt that these guys had it out for Razie's son. Why would they?
 
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
They failed all their students in that four-day event. I'm wondering if it might have been like the Level II College that PSIA does.

When everyone fails, I blame the people in charge. This is coming from a full-time credentialed teacher with a masters degree in education who taught at the high school and college level for her whole professional career.
 

Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
Instructor
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Posts
688
Location
Kirkwood, California
I was actually looking for Tim’s response as he specifically indicated he taught a braking wedge vs a gliding wedge and I wanted to know how he differentiates the two and how he teaches each. I suspect that there are different definitions of these terms by different people.

Hey @Nancy Hummel et al.! Just so I can understand, what would call the wedge demo in this video? And the wedge turns ("curves") demos? And do you believe that both are what "we" are supposed to teach? Would they pass PSIA examination?

 
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
I'll answer, even though you are asking @Nancy Hummel. Maybe lots of instructors will chime in. It will be interesting to see how consistent our responses are.

No, these wedge turns will not pass a PSIA Level II or III certification exam. These wedge turns are wider than PSIA wants to see, and they rely on edging and pressure to create the turn. The skiers angulate over the outside ski to get it weighted and edged. You're not going to see a PSIA examiner doing that in a wedge turn demo.

PSIA wants instructors to teach a narrow, gliding wedge. Rotate both skis with the arches of the feet as the pivot points to get the initial wedge. This will mean that the stance width does not increase beyond what the skier will use later in basic parallel turns. Then examiners will want to see the skier rotating the wedge to point down the fall line. This means the turn does not depend on edging as much as the turns do in this video. The PSIA wedge turns happen with flatter skis.
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
Instructor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Posts
1,036
Location
Snowmass
I would say no. I have had a couple of glasses of wine and am viewing on my phone.

It appears that the there is incomplete release of inside ski -with most of turning coming from outside ski but will need to view on computer.

Plus, there is the weird sink move at the end. Not sure what that is.
 
Last edited:

Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
Instructor
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Posts
688
Location
Kirkwood, California
Dang, Nancy I wish my wife and I could join you and your husband with drinks, but it is still light here and I am not done vacuuming her Dodge from the accumulated grime of this Winter. Maybe LF can join you -- she is 2 hours ahead.

So, Carry on.

It is not an assignment, but I would love to have your movement analysis with PSIA approved movement differentiation, possibly with video, when and if you have time.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,366
Location
Truckee
What I find interesting is that they demo, and apparently want instructors to teach, both wedge turns and basic parallel turns with ZERO upper-lower body separation.

And looking again, there's a little wedge entry in those "basic" turns, from what to my eye looks like a stemming movement.

It's quite a leap in turn mechanics to get to those "wide corridor" and "narrow corridor" turns.
 
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
I would say no. I have had a couple of glasses of wine and am viewing on my phone.

It appears that the there is incomplete release of inside ski -with most of turning coming from outside ski but will need to view on computer.

Plus, there is the weird sink move at the end. Not sure what that is.

The wedge turns in that video have the skier stand tall between turns to release. Standing tall flattens the skis if the skier adjusts the underfoot pressure to be equal for both feet. This is a version of extending the new outside leg to flatten the skis and push the CoM diagonally downhill, towards the new inside ski. The skis are flattened.

In order to stand tall, once must get small first. Small-Tall. Thus the weird sink move. When I first started teaching, the senior examiner on staff at the ski school did all his wedge turns this way. He was not the only trainer I've encountered to do this. He also did the turns without any separation.

There was a long discussion back on EpicSki about whether to teach beginners to do the small-tall thing. Lots of disagreement on it, but no food fight as I recall.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top