Turn Radius of skis

[cantunamunch]

And at some point I realize I'm just sensing it as you say rather than thinking about it, at least until my next lesson when the instructor gives me something new to consider, or I find new uncomfortable terrain on the mountain.

To answer the question in your previous post as a segue to this one - it is exactly when exploring sensations (i.e. no longer concentrating on the basics of a given task) and when under-terrained that it helps to think about this sort of stuff.

One can think about it in terms of complete formalisms (in which case it helps to practice the brain off season) or one can use it as a guide to self-discover completely new sensations.

In that vein, and harking back to one of your preceding questions, I put it to you that having the CoM be completely stable with regards to a balance point during an entire turn phase is the essence of park-and-ride skiing.

 

[Scruffy]

Gentlemen, reading again through this thread I realized that a bunch of intelligent , mature persons wasted a couple of precious hours from their lives discussing and arguing on what basically amounts to “how to spread butter on a slice of bread”.

I feel a bit embarrassed about that...

Hey, the correct way to spread butter is important; could be the difference between a skidded spread or a carved spread . Our ski season was truncated; we didn't have any closure, so we're bunch of bereaved jamokes splitting hairs about the correct way to rearrange the deck chairs.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Time was wasted?

 

[KingGrump]

 

[Scruffy]

Thank you, don't think you intended it for me, but this was what I was hoping to see. COM at the outside hip in a turn with the force flowing up that leg to that hip. Something to fine tune for next season. Does everyone here really think about force vector diagrams when skiing? Sure, I can intellectualize it out of season when I got nothing ski-related to do, but when skiing I'm responding to the forces acting on my body, not some mathematically defined COM point in space.

For me, No, not while everyday skiing. That's the time I think about tactics and line. I hope my techniques should be pretty much dialed. As @cantunamunch said "it is exactly when exploring sensations (i.e. no longer concentrating on the basics of a given task) "

It could pop up in everyday skiing however if I'm having some unexpected issue. For example: as related to the COM/BOS issue, if I'm trying to carve on ice, and I'm not holding an edge when I think I should be, I might do a self check to make sure I'm aligned as I know I should be.

Yes, as part of drills, but not diagrams as such, but more: how is my COM alignment aligned with my desired turn type/shape.

 

[oldschoolskier]

As someone that started skiing at 50, a lot of what the instructors and experienced folks here take for granted is new to me, so please pardon any tedious questions or comments. As I've progressed, I have bounced back and forth between an outside and inside foot "focus" as I learn and become more aware of the forces acting upon me in skiing. I need to stay balanced over the outside foot. Can I lift my inside ski and stay in balance? Why not? Where do I tuck the inside foot? How much should I try to tip it or pull it back? Etc, etc. etc... And at some point I realize I'm just sensing it as you say rather than thinking about it, at least until my next lesson when the instructor gives me something new to consider, or I find new uncomfortable terrain on the mountain. This year was short radius turns, so the turn radius of skis and turn mechanics in this thread are interesting to me.

Might I suggest that the difference between experienced skiers and those not so experienced is that the experienced one’s don’t think about CoM, to paraphrase Yoda they just “do CoM”.

Practice simple side slip drills and 360 drill (variations) as they teach balance and edge feel (or how to control your CoM combined with ski position) to make things work at the subconscious level (similar to walking and running).

When it is explained, it sounds way more difficult as it involves a lot of different actions. Don’t over think it, just let it happen, it really isn’t that much different than walking or running.

Have fun and carve on.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

I need to stay balanced over the outside foot. Can I lift my inside ski and stay in balance? Why not? Where do I tuck the inside foot? How much should I try to tip it or pull it back? Etc, etc. etc...

This is the correct thread to continue forward in your journey. Have enjoyed having a front row seat to watch your progression. Lifting the inside ski is easy as long as you are managing your platform angle. Picture that lives in my bar shows me balanced on my outside ski as the inside ski is lifted. Grind the spine line that can be found on the backside of soft spring moguls. All the hard work you put in this season getting ready for soft spring bumps slipped past unrewarded.

 

[Marker]

This is the correct thread to continue forward in your journey. Have enjoyed having a front row seat to watch your progression. Lifting the inside ski is easy as long as you are managing your platform angle. Picture that lives in my bar shows me balanced on my outside ski as the inside ski is lifted. Grind the spine line that can be found on the backside of soft spring moguls. All the hard work you put in this season getting ready for soft spring bumps slipped past unrewarded.

View attachment 100394

Yep, I had to cancel two spring trips that were going to hopefully lock the progress I made this year, but that wasn't to be. I had one small revelation on my last early March trip that I wanted to explore some more. Again, all about that inside foot, what to do with it in the bumps/moguls, and what I was feeling in terms of balance. At this point, I doubt my ability to put it into words, so wanted more time to play around with it first. Unfortunately, that trip I didn't get to ski with you to see what you thought.

And say hi to your crew in Killington!

 

[Juha]

Exactly! And the angle of that force is ALWAYS 45 degrees-i.e. the resulting force of the gravitation and centrifugal force. You cant change that. What you CAN change is the position of your centre of mass in relation to that force which in turn will influence the stability of the whole system when in motion.

Hell no! The angle of that resulting force varies depending of the forces involved. The force resisting gravity does not change since mass remains constant, however the force needed to resist cetrifigural force depends of the speed and radius of the curve being made at that moment.

 

[Rod9301]

Hell no! The angle of that resulting force varies depending of the forces involved. The force resisting gravity does not change since mass remains constant, however the force needed to resist cetrifigural force depends of the speed and radius of the curve being made at that moment.

Tony, back to physics with you

 

[mdf]

View attachment 100394

The way that picture lined up on my monitor there was bare ground in back and a glimpse of brown at the bottom. For a moment I thought you were about to ski into a patch of bare ground! Ouch!

 

[Larry]

Personally, I just snowplow, then push my left leg down ease up on right then vice versa with my right and left and somehow I turn

 

[Juha]

Hell no! The angle of that resulting force varies depending of the forces involved. The force resisting gravity does not change since mass remains constant, however the force needed to resist cetrifigural force depends of the speed and radius of the curve being made at that moment.

And I need to correct myself here to be more precise. The force resisting gravity stays constant only when we are skiing on the same "riding height, but the force resisting gravity also changes somewhat when the CoM travels up or down (ie. the skier let's him/herself drow low or pushes back to a higher stance). The force applied to stopping lowering position for example adds to the normal gravital force and adds the vertical component.

And obviously skiing is very dynamic sport, so this happens all the time to some extent.

I like the description of skiing physics in LeMaster's masterpiece. It is factually correct and very well presented. Everyone interested in improving their skiing should read it!

BTW, the stick man example works too for me, it is a very simplied model.