Turn Initiation

[dj61]

Yeah, that's because there is friction between your feet and the floor.
On the snow, without friction, your feet move back.

Man, you are persistent. Last attempt. Look at the first minute of this:

What do you see: feet moving backwards or body moving forward? Or is it all relative. Spoiler alert: it is relative!
And on the snow there is friction. If you do the same movement that I described earlier, your body will move forward before your feet will move back. Unless you weight nothing or perform this in a vacuum.

 

[Rod9301]

Man, you are persistent. Last attempt. Look at the first minute of this:

What do you see: feet moving backwards or body moving forward? Or is it all relative. Spoiler alert: it is relative!
And on the snow there is friction. If you do the same movement that I described earlier, your body will move forward before your feet will move back. Unless you weight nothing or perform this in a vacuum.

Yes, i am persistent.
You are right that the movements are relative, all I'm saying is that the way to get forward is to pull your feet back, not trying to get your upper body forward.
But try it yourself. I have and it's a lot easier and faster.

 

[dj61]

Yes, i am persistent.
You are right that the movements are relative, all I'm saying is that the way to get forward is to pull your feet back, not trying to get your upper body forward.
But try it yourself. I have and it's a lot easier and faster.

That was not the issue. Again: it is one and the same movement with the same muscle groups involved. You could not believe that you use your hamstrings (and glutes) for this movement. If you only use the abdominals to move forward you will get out of balance and loose control. To stay balanced, you move forward by trying to move you feet backward. Since you can't, you upper body will move forward. Your hamstrings and glutes and lower abdominals should be involved in this movement. I do not have to try this myself. I am doing exactly this for many many years. But like I said, some people respond to the "pull feet back" instruction other need the "move your upper body forward (but use your hamstrings and gluten to do this) cue. In the end, it is exactly the same. For you apparently the 'pull your feet back' works. That is fine.

 

[razie]

To stay balanced, you move forward by trying to move you feet backward. Since you can't, you upper body will move forward.

results depend on the situation: if the skier is in boots on cement, you get body moving forward. If the skier is gliding upright on a green like the coach in the video above, then you get what you see there: a bit of both. If the skier is in the middle of a very energetic WC turn or rather transition, with the knees at 90 degrees and skis off the snow, you get something else.

it's the difference between

and

On a separate note, if one would rather start the new turn already extended, blue jacket is the ticket. If not, then red pants. (orange arrows mean active effort, blue is result).

Also, red pants can't do anything about bringing his COM forward at that point in time, since there is nothing to push against (skis are off the snow)... all he can do is keep pulling the boots back. Of course the core is active in the second case as well, but not really specifically to get forward... while the hamstrings are intently used to keep the boots back in both scenarios (less in the first, as there is less leverage).

There is an issue with the blue jacket, resulting directly from not using the hamstrings much and complementing with other muscles too much: he's locking the hips, but that's for another thread...

Different situations, different actions, different outcomes...

'nuff said?

 

[markojp]

... page 4 land.... we're getting close!

 

[François Pugh]

For some, "Close the ankles" is the needed prompt that works.

In the air moving the feet back also moves the rest of the body forward; it's simple physics, but I regress.

 

[Philpug]

... page 4 land.... we're getting close!

Yes, I think all that needs to be said has already been said....

 

[dj61]

results depend on the situation: if the skier is in boots on cement, you get body moving forward. If the skier is gliding upright on a green like the coach in the video above, then you get what you see there: a bit of both. If the skier is in the middle of a very energetic WC turn or rather transition, with the knees at 90 degrees and skis off the snow, you get something else.

it's the difference between

and

On a separate note, if one would rather start the new turn already extended, blue jacket is the ticket. If not, then red pants. (orange arrows mean active effort, blue is result).

Also, red pants can't do anything about bringing his COM forward at that point in time, since there is nothing to push against (skis are off the snow)... all he can do is keep pulling the boots back. Of course the core is active in the second case as well, but not really specifically to get forward... while the hamstrings are intently used to keep the boots back in both scenarios (less in the first, as there is less leverage).

There is an issue with the blue jacket, resulting directly from not using the hamstrings much and complementing with other muscles too much: he's locking the hips, but that's for another thread...

Different situations, different actions, different outcomes...

'nuff said?

Razie, I think we agree. Although I find it difficult to see how the feet can move backward, since the whole body is moving forward. But in a relative sense you are right. The net result being that the skier will slow down a bit during transition. You bring up an interesting point on how to move forward when there is nothing to push against. I guess it is the same as with gymnastics: you use the forces you have gained prior to the moment your skis come of the snow. From a physics standpoint there is no other way, I guess.

 

[markojp]

Dj, fwiw, Razie coaches his a$$ off. So do Zenny and others. They're pretty darn good at choosing effective words and cues. I've used 'pulling feet back' with success as well. Often the 'getting it' part comes from choosing on snow words, physical 'try this's' etc... . Sometimes new frames of reference and ideas don't click right away. If they don't, we adjust and find something that does work. You may not believe this (pulling feet back) is effective, but our experiences coaching/teaching/ learning tell us it is.

This is where ski instruction threads get mucky because we make assumptions about ourselves and others and efforts to clarify usually go to pot. Someone who feels offended or unduly challenged won't read the 'if it doesn't click, we'll find something else that does' and take umbrage. We're not there yet, but it's close. Personally, if I read somthing I don't quite get, but others with very valid (and a lot of) experience says something has worked for them, I'll try it on snow, send a PM to clarify, etc...

Historically, even with the best of intentions, ski instruction threads (with great contributors too!) , generally go sideways after page 4.... give the stuff Razie shared a try. Even better if you can work with a coach on it. It won't be off the radar if they've been around a bit. If you're already teaching, talk about it with your training staff. And there's the rub. It's summer and most of us will need to wait a few months to put any of this in practice. Anyhow...

 

[Mendieta]

I agree with much of what @Philpug and @markojp said above. This thread is no longer addressing the OP, and it entered a vicious cycle. I am closing it, in the interest that anyone with a similar question as the OP has a chance of finding a good answer (most of which was addressed in the first few answers). Please PM us (mods), if you believe we should re-open. Cheers!