Turn in steeps

[Rod9301]

Haven't seen anyone do a bicycle turn in a couple decades. Wider skis sort of obviated the need.

You obviously don't see people ski steep terrain.
That jump turn is still vitally needed today in steep, 50 degree terrain.

 

[river-z]

I agree with the people who posted earlier about letting yourself live into the part fo the turn where you're facing downhill if just for a moment. Trusting that you can get that ski back around just enough to let yourself face downward and then into the next the turn is the hard part.

 

[markojp]

You obviously don't see people ski steep terrain.
That jump turn is still vitally needed today in steep, 50 degree terrain.

Feel free to disagree, but don't make assumptions about what or where I've skied. You'd be seriously mistaken. Yes, a jump turn is a vital skill. A bicycle turn (yes, I can and have done them), not so much. That's just like, my opinion man. I don't care a lick if you live and die by them if they work for you and you're having fun skiing what and where you want.

 

[scott43]

I agree with the people who posted earlier about letting yourself live into the part fo the turn where you're facing downhill if just for a moment. Trusting that you can get that ski back around just enough to let yourself face downward and then into the next the turn is the hard part.

That's what I was taught..dive through the open window..lose control to gain control back after you cross over the fall line again.

 

[Coach13]

That's what I was taught..dive through the open window..lose control to gain control back after you cross over the fall line again.

I’m not skiing a bunch of steep runs but I think this is a commonality to solid turns

Patience is relative. There is often more time than people think there is. Even in the bumps the ski should spend a little bit of time going down the hill (this whole stupid sport is called downhill skiing after all). Some skiers don't want to spend ANY time with the skis pointing down the hill. They are going to go to great lengths to keep that from happening. They are going to make the classic Z turns.

I’m not skiing a bunch of steep runs but I think what you note is one commonality across all levels of skill and terrain required for good turns.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I’m not skiing a bunch of steep runs but I think what you note is one commonality across all levels of skill and terrain required for good turns.

One person's steep is another person't flat (until you get to Vallencant) but the problems are the same, aren't they.

 

[river-z]

I’m not skiing a bunch of steep runs but I think this is a commonality to solid turns


I’m not skiing a bunch of steep runs but I think what you note is one commonality across all levels of skill and terrain required for good turns.

I agree. And after I wrote my post I kept thinking about it and had the same thought you note about commonality, recalling that "Steep" is a relative term. So this point is as relevant to the beginner who is trying out intermediate terrain as to the advanced skier trying out a double black.

 

[KingGrump]

That's what I was taught..dive through the open window..lose control to gain control back after you cross over the fall line again.

Embracing gravity and Commitment to the turn is not the same as "lose control."
Big difference in the head game most experienced in the steeps.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Inferring from the original question is more of a progressing expert reluctant to commit to the fall line, not a question related to specific technique for extreme steep terrain.

My layman's two cents is to practice quick turns on moderate slopes. Do quick turns until your legs burn, take a break, do some more. Perhaps there are some drills that can help with this.

Also keep your edges sharp if it's icy. Slipping on a steep slope will scare the crap out of you and make turning that much harder.

When I was teaching myself to ski moguls I remember skiing diagonal to the fall line and picking up more and more speed because I didn't know how to or was afraid to turn downhill. Made for some great crashes.

 

[KingGrump]

I have skied a few steeper slopes now and then. My experience is the turns does not have to be quick. The turns need to be shaped well.
It's as much tactics as it's technique.
My mantra is "Shape your turn to develop your line, allow your line to control your speed."

 

[François Pugh]

I'm guessing this would be sort of a backwards pedaling motion where the inside ski is lifted and pulled back aggressively? I'm surprised I don't know this term as long as I've been hanging around. Details please...

Actualy a frontward pedalling motion. As top and outside foot pedals down ski comes around and inside foot comes up. Repeat in mirror image. Less exhausting than jump turns. Needs steep slope to work. Foot motion is almost identical to pedaling a bicycle with large pedal crank.

 

[paulski]

I'm indeed not looking at an extreme couloir where hop or bicycle turns would be necessary, more steep blacks or double blacks.

What do you mean by fast turns? Are you talking about overall speed or more like quick, slalom turns?

Not quick slalom turns but how to reduce speed gains to the minimum in a steep slope. I feel I turn my skis too slowly so I stay in the fall line for too long. Ideally I'd like the rotation to gain the minimal amount of speed.

When I read this post and think of a client that would say it, I'm picturing a person who actually doesn't need to turn faster, but probably someone who needs more patience in the fall line. Every turn needs a beginning, a middle and an end, and a lot of people who have trouble in the steeps are afraid to let the skis point down the hill in the middle part. They also are frequently unwilling to let go of the hill and start their new turn by releasing the old turn, by flattening the skis. Separation of the upper and lower body is crucial for completing these turns too. The smaller you want the turn to be, the more important it is.

That's partly me, thank you. I definitively don't do the 2nd turn right, either rushed or I wait too long. Strong separation does help but I don't have the whole sequence figured out. Here is an example I think I found on this forum: at 54s, the turns are super quick, don't pick up much speed and don't seem to hop (most of them).

The magic for me has been three things: flexing to "get short" at edge change, tipping the lower leg to flatten the skis and subsequently establish edge at the apex of the turn, and getting the outside hip stacked over the outside hip (when "short") at edge change.

Thank you, trying to picture it ;-)

 

[paulski]

Inferring from the original question is more of a progressing expert reluctant to commit to the fall line, not a question related to specific technique for extreme steep terrain.

My layman's two cents is to practice quick turns on moderate slopes. Do quick turns until your legs burn, take a break, do some more. Perhaps there are some drills that can help with this.

Also keep your edges sharp if it's icy. Slipping on a steep slope will scare the crap out of you and make turning that much harder.

When I was teaching myself to ski moguls I remember skiing diagonal to the fall line and picking up more and more speed because I didn't know how to or was afraid to turn downhill. Made for some great crashes.

yes you are right on point.
I look for short steep sections on the side of slopes to make turns in a safe environment to practice. I also do pivot slips.

 

[skier]

I'm indeed not looking at an extreme couloir where hop or bicycle turns would be necessary, more steep blacks or double blacks.



Not quick slalom turns but how to reduce speed gains to the minimum in a steep slope. I feel I turn my skis too slowly so I stay in the fall line for too long. Ideally I'd like the rotation to gain the minimal amount of speed.

Ok, since I search out the moguls, quick turns on blacks and double blacks are right up my alley, so I'll give some advice. First, if you're turning too slowly, you might be on your tails. One problem is that people tend to lean back when it gets steep at exactly the worst time. Mogul skiers do this drill where they practice sinking further forward when the slope gets steeper. If you have pressure on the tips, it helps turn the ski faster, also the shovel digs in giving speed control. Weight shift to the outside ski to get more pressure on the shovel for quicker turns and greater speed control. When you release that forward pressure you will accelerate, so maintain that pressure constantly unless it's deep powder.

Next, time spent in the fall line means skiing faster. Mogul skiers keep their skis mostly pointing down the fall line, but it's because the tips are driving into the flatter and uphill sections of the moguls, so it's not the same as the skis pointing down the hill entirely on a steep section. If you spend time pointing down the hill you will accelerate very quickly. There are jump turns, and then there's a tiny bit of steering at the top of the turn, and then there's the full spectrum in between. Certainly, be light in transition and rotate the skis before edging. Use rebound from the ski to get light or use bumps if there are some, so that you can easily rotate the skis without having to jump. The steeper it gets the lighter you need to be with more rotation in the air until you're doing a full jump turn.

On blacks and most double blacks you can link turns, and the linked turns will slow you down rather than doing one long turn across the hill. Many people ski across the hill too long, because they're not in balance to make the next turn. Practice makes perfect.

This video below at 0:40 shows the proper use of these techniques on blacks and even on easy blues. It's maybe a bit much for greens, though if it's a really gnarly green that's the way I'll ski.


Just kidding. Here's what it looks like starting at 8:00.

 

[KingGrump]

Here is an example I think I found on this forum: at 54s, the turns are super quick, don't pick up much speed and don't seem to hop (most of them).

Hope this is not you. If it is. Sorry.

The follow 17 frame (2 turns) are from the video starting at 0:54.
You tell me what the skier is doing right and what he got wrong.

Turn #1.

Turn #2.

Turn #3.

Turn #4.

Turn #5.

 

[tball]

^^^ That's me. Feel free to MA away. I can take it, and I'm grateful for any feedback.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I have skied a few steeper slopes now and then. My experience is the turns does not have to be quick. The turns need to be shaped well....

Speaking of "shaped well," check these turns out.
Start watching at 0:53. The camera is watching the skier from above.

Round turns on very steep terrain (La Grave).
Skis stay mostly on the snow.
There's a bit of rotary input from the skier. Also some foot squirt (calling @epic).

 

[paulski]

sorry for choosing a video of a forum member ;-)

I'm probably totally wrong but let me try:

#1: good forward pole plant then slight back seat and one arm is slightly behind. There is a big drop to absorb which stops the skier
#2: starts A-frame but super quick turn
#3: slight A-frame but looks effective
#4: lift of inside ski not too great but turn linking looks good

Mayne slightly more separation could help ?
Overall I find speed control great and turns be quick enough for a tight space. Both skills I'm trying to acquire.

tball are you just hoping all turns ? what cues do you use for your turns in this sequence ?

(thank you everybody for the amazing replies)

 

[paulski]

Speaking of "shaped well," check these turns out.
Start watching at 0:53. The camera is watching the skier from above.

Round turns on very steep terrain (La Grave).
Skis stay mostly on the snow.
There's a bit of rotary input from the skier. Also some foot squirt (calling @epic).

Thank you, very cool.
I see great separation, I can't help to see a small hop to turn the skis so quick (I guess that's what others referred to as being light on the skis, wish I could figure out how to do it, banking on repetition for now). I think I can see the flattening of the skis before the turn but there is no "patient turn with skis in the fall line and finishing the turn". When I see these turns I see a smooth fast move from the hips and legs, not a focus on turn shape as there is barely any lateral travel.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@paulski, I guess you're right that those turns don't move the skier left-right much. But those are not pedal turns (which also won't show much left-right displacement of the skier), not real hop turns even though there's some serious unweighting at the start (the snow registers the passage of skis brushing across it), and they are not pivot slips. What shall we call them? I like "turn" because ... well, just because.