Tuck turn vs Turn while tucking.

[Speeder]

This is a question for Downhill Coaches. While skiin in a tuck position there are two different types of turn.
In the first case the skier slightly rotates the upper body away from the direction of the turn. The greater the rotation the tighter the turn.
In the second case the skier more or less does a normal turn while maintaining the tuck position.
I rarely see the World Cup racers use the turn described by the first case above.
In which situation (if one exists) would you be better off to use the first case tuck turn in a race?

 

[Lifer]

This is a question for Downhill Coaches.
While skiin in a tuck position ... the skier slightly rotates the upper body away from the direction of the turn. The greater the rotation the tighter the turn.

I've never taught this turn, that while in a tuck, by increasing upper body counter rotatation, the radius of the turn will shorten.

Classic park and ride - assume a position, wait for the skis, and hope they will turn.

Engaging various degrees of foot eversion / inversion while in a tuck will promote greater, more precise ski control and speed gains.

 

[Dakine]

You can make the counter rotation tuck turn work in an easy NASTAR course but it is slow and not dynamic.
A real carved turn in a high tuck is much more likely to let you hold your line.
The thing is, you have to get some pelvis rotation to make this work and that is near impossible in a low tuck.

 

[François Pugh]

Not a coach or even a proper DH racer, but the physics is pretty simple. If you move your head to the left, your natural tendency is to compensate by moving your hips to the right to stay balanced. Counter rotation affects angulation. This changes the geometry and puts you skis on a bigger angle. It's all about the angle the skis are tipped to.

EDIT: @Dakine posted while I was composing. Just to be clear, I'm talking about a clean carved turn (which is what you want for speed), not a rotating the skis.

 

[James]

Downhill gliding is pretty much who’s better at “park and ride”, no? It’s just active/passive parking.

 

[Lifer]

Downhill gliding is pretty much who’s better at “park and ride”, no?

The OP's question was about turning, not gliding.

To answer your question re gliding: No. That's like saying don't move to maintain a quiet upper body.

 

[Speeder]

You can make the counter rotation tuck turn work in an easy NASTAR course but it is slow and not dynamic.
A real carved turn in a high tuck is much more likely to let you hold your line.
The thing is, you have to get some pelvis rotation to make this work and that is near impossible in a low tuck.

Thanks for your reply. My question was about DH not NASTAR. The turns I'm asking about are in the 45m radius ballpark.

 

[Speeder]

Downhill gliding is pretty much who’s better at “park and ride”, no? It’s just active/passive parking.

I don't understand what you mean by "active parking". Park and ride I have heard of and I agree that there is a place for it in the long sweeping turns. There are lots of these long sweepers on the WC but I hardly ever see the counter rotation tuck turn. I wonder of its aerodynamically inefficient.

 

[James]

I hardly ever see the counter rotation tuck turn. I wonder of its aerodynamically inefficient.

I think you’re right. You’d basically be increasing frontal area.
Maybe it really only exists to clear gates.

Svindal 2006 Aare
www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/index.html

 

[Dakine]

I think you’re right. You’d basically be increasing frontal area.
Maybe it really only exists to clear gates.

View attachment 107973
Svindal 2006 Aare
www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/index.html

Nicer pic.
It shows well that if you cannot counter rotate your pelvis, you cannot angulate but can still turn turn by inclination.

 

[Doug Briggs]

This is a question for Downhill Coaches. While skiin in a tuck position there are two different types of turn.
In the first case the skier slightly rotates the upper body away from the direction of the turn. The greater the rotation the tighter the turn.
In the second case the skier more or less does a normal turn while maintaining the tuck position.
I rarely see the World Cup racers use the turn described by the first case above.
In which situation (if one exists) would you be better off to use the first case tuck turn in a race?

The second bolded statement is true because turn shape is more determined by edge angles than by increasing counter in speed. Counter is used to get more edge angle however the longer you can stay aero AND maintain adequate edge angles for the turn you need to make, the faster you are likely to be.

If you need more edge angle than you can get from inclination alone then you are must add counter and that usually will cause you to become less aero. There is always a trade off between aero and turn quality. The winners know what trade offs have the best return.

Many, if not most, beginning speed racers counter too much. It's a habit learned in tech events where it is often pronounced and essential to good angles.

 

[James]

The second bolded statement is true because turn shape is more determined by edge angles than by increasing counter in speed. Counter is used to get more edge angle however the longer you can stay aero AND maintain adequate edge angles for the turn you need to make, the faster you are likely to be.

If you need more edge angle than you can get from inclination alone then you are must add counter and that usually will cause you to become less aero. There is always a trade off between aero and turn quality. The winners know what trade offs have the best return.

Many, if not most, beginning speed racers counter too much. It's a habit learned in tech events where it is often pronounced and essential to good angles.

Seems like Svindal is doing that in the turn portion below the gate. He has to apply more edge angle for 2-3 frames, then back into tuck.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Seems like Svindal is doing that in the turn portion below the gate. He has to apply more edge angle for 2-3 frames, then back into tuck.
View attachment 108026

Yes, it is an excellent example of knowing when more rotation and less aero is better. It is an intuitive feeling that just happens as needed. If your intuition is good, you go faster. If not, then you don't. There is nothing black and white about ski racing.

Unless it's early pictures of me.

 

[James]

Yes, it is an excellent example of knowing when more rotation and less aero is better. It is an intuitive feeling that just happens as needed. If your intuition is good, you go faster. If not, then you don't. There is nothing black and white about ski racing.

Unless it's early pictures of me.

View attachment 108042

Just sayin-
You look better, and a lower bib! Similar poles.
The Witherell cover has always struck me as awkward.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Just sayin-
You look better, and a lower bib! Similar poles.
The Witherell cover has always struck me as awkward.

Thanks.

 

[Jack skis]

Haven't I heard World Cup commentators (ex-WC racers) say "never give up a turn for a tuck"? Or was it the other way around? As for the picture on the cover of the Witherell book that was taken a long time ago, and the Mad River Glen bib indicates it probably wasn't a WC race, maybe not even close to that level. Better skiing than I was doing at that time

 

[Doug Briggs]

Is there a cover photo credit in Warren's book?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Is there a cover photo credit in Warren's book?

That photo reappears inside the book on page 37. On the previous page is a photo of another skier using "severe hip angulation" (enabled by turned hips and shoulders) that Witherall compares favorably to Gustavo Thoeni at similar gates. The two photos are used to show how "turning the hips and shoulders" can sometimes be used to benefit, while at other times it's best to keep hips square to the skis.

Witherell's photo caption for the cover shot says:
"7b. Sarah Pendleton, 972 Corcoran Cup winner, exhibits a straighter upper-body lean combined with knee and hip angulation. This allows Sarah to maintain a more square hip position. There are advantages and disadvantages to both Sarah's and Leah's Position."

There are more comments on these photos in the Appendix. At the end of that set of comments he writes "This photo of Sarah was selected for the cover of this book because it so clearly emphasizes edge angle, angulation, forward leverage, and the carving action of her ski in the snow."

 

[James]

She’s rippin both edges!
I have photo credit to Malcom Reiss.

Haven't I heard World Cup commentators (ex-WC racers) say "never give up a turn for a tuck"?

Yep. @Doug Briggs ?

 

[oldschoolskier]

I’m of the opinion, if it makes you the fastest is what is important.

It’s simply about what works for a particular skier.

Don’t over think it.

Klammer....rag doll technique.

The Herminator, Aero Brick.

Crazy Canuck...god only knows (maybe a few screws loose).

Vonn, girl kicks your butt.

and so on.