Truth is in the tune. Or is it?

[Philpug]

My feeling is that you can up the performance of any brand new ski by somewhere in the 5% -- 15% range by doing a good tune and wax job. If you ski it untuned, straight out of the wrapper, you might give it an 85. Go back and get it tuned, and ski it on the same hill and odds are that it will jump to a 90+. It will not get worse. It will only get better.
I'd love to see a test with a known, category leading ski, tested with an untouched factory tune. And then put a real, complete tune on it and take it back out for the same test. Phil, you'd do a big service to your readers by doing something along these lines. It would have to be a retail ski, right off the rack, not something out of a company demo van. As some folks know, there is some history of demo van skis and skis shipped to media ski tests working a lot better than the actual production skis.

We do our best to discern the differences and unfortunately we are testing the tune as much as, if not mroe than the tune. Sadly, sometimes as media we ski stuff that is NOT even production quality. How it gets to us this way jsut does not make sense.

 

[Eleeski]

@Jed Peters I prefer a 0 degree base. Others prefer .5 degrees. Still others prefer 1 degree. The factory should offer skis with 0 degree bases so the individual can tune to the personal requirements. Since one can't add material, the proper default is zero. It's not difficult to bevel the base edge.

Part of the assessment of a new ski should be to try to optimize the tune to you and the new ski. It's worth a couple rides stock to see how that particular ski responds. Also probably worth it to try .5 before cutting all the way to 1. You might like something different for a different ski.

@Choucas is in the ballpark with the 5 to 15% estimation of tuning help. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for a ski with a different feel. But you certainly will be able to feel a nice tune - for a while.

Eric

 

[skibob]

If you don't mind me getting too personal, who did the tune?

Not at all. Brent at BlueZone Sports (89 and Deerfield).

 

[Doug Briggs]

I apologize for my delayed assembly of responses. I've been busy. Skiing. and working a bit, too.

Polyethylene pipe is rated for a hundred year life. Ski bases are a polyethylene. Bases do not spontaneously deteriorate regardless of the waxing. I'm not sure what you are calling "base burn" or how such damage can happen. Wouldn't a nice base grind deal with any issues with the base?

I do prefer sharp edges on my skis regardless of the snow. It seems like there's always an icy traverse to the soft pitch. But honestly I'm too lazy to sharpen unless it's really icy.

The serious tuners blow past me on the hill. But my slow line in the bumps is fun.

Eric

Spontaneous deterioration? Agreed, not happening. UV exposure, friction, abrassive surfaces contacting the bases? Absolutely it deteriorates.

What I call 'base burn' is primarily the result of friction between the bases and snow crystals and ice. It is the graying of black bases initially along the edges and eventually on the entire base. The material of the base is degraded and is patently slower and grippier resulting in slow, non-slippery areas of the base.

I consider a base grind and a base's condition as part of the ski's tune as well so if we are talking about ski tunes and considering bases separately then we aren't talking complete tunes. Not every tune requires a grind, but every tune should consider the base's condition.

@Eleeski- the only conditions where the tune truly does not matter are powder or spring snow (i.e. anything soft). Anything hard and the edge hold starts to matter. Every December I sharpen my rock skis and discover that it has absolutely no effect on edge hold. the bases are too rounded, the ski needs a grind. But who in their right mind grinds a rock ski? So I keep sliding around... Another prop to SkisAndMore in Truckee: Sorin's tune on my GS skis looks so beautiful, I am almost reluctant to ski on it.

I respectfully disagree 'tune truly does not matter are powder or spring snow'. Edges don't matter much, although burred edges can cause problems of slowness and grabbiness. Structure of the bases is a huge factor in sliding or not sliding in spring conditions. Wax and base condition greatly influence your skis' ability to glide through powder. Navigating the runouts and cat tracks with unwaxed, poorly tuned bases take a lot of fun out of any soft-snow day.

No one says you are out clubbing baby seals or anything like that, we can disagree. No need to take it that personal. I will agree and disagree with you...waxes, unless you are racing in speed events where the ski is gliding can receive a bit much focus, but what is wrong with that? I recall one time after a big race and a local racer killed it, parents were coming in and asking "What was on Scottie Lebel's skis.???"..We just replied..."Scottie Lebel". Edges though, are more important. Like brakes in your car, they need attention, you don't realize how your brakes change day to day until you get into a car that has new brakes then get back into yours where the brakes are bad..huge difference. Same with a neglected tune, you adjust as a skier to it.

Back to the OP and what has been discussed here is either a bad initial turn or no tune at all. That is where there is an issue. Is the ski concave or convex? Do the edges have a consistent angle? All of this will determin if the ski will start OK. An older ski like you are skiing, hell that is your choice if you wnat to tune it or not. If you like no wax to slow you down in the bumps or smooth edges to help you ski easy, that is all your choice but others have different wants and needs.

I can never think of a time I wanted my skis to glide less efficiently. When I want to go slower, I ski slower (more turns, less carve/more slarve). I don't want my skis to slow me down, I want to use my skis to manage my speed.

"What was on Scottie Lebel's skis.???"..We just replied..."Scottie Lebel". Perfect!

 

[Doug Briggs]

@Jed Peters I prefer a 0 degree base. Others prefer .5 degrees. Still others prefer 1 degree. The factory should offer skis with 0 degree bases so the individual can tune to the personal requirements. Since one can't add material, the proper default is zero. It's not difficult to bevel the base edge.

Part of the assessment of a new ski should be to try to optimize the tune to you and the new ski. It's worth a couple rides stock to see how that particular ski responds. Also probably worth it to try .5 before cutting all the way to 1. You might like something different for a different ski.

@Choucas is in the ballpark with the 5 to 15% estimation of tuning help. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for a ski with a different feel. But you certainly will be able to feel a nice tune - for a while.

Eric

That is akin to suggesting that all cars come with bias ply tires because people will want to upgrade their tires as soon as they take ownership. For anyone that wants to run bias-ply tires instead of the radials the manufacturer recommends, yippee. Those that want their vehicle to run operate according to 'spec' are SOL and have to pony up for new tires.

The manufacturers attempt to deliver their skis with a tune that they believe will let them perform their best. Delivering skis with a 0 base bevel would require all but one or two buyers to have their skis retuned/reground to perform to specifications; virtually no one asks for a 0.0 base bevel. I don't even tune my vintage skis with 0 base bevel, although I do use 1 and 1 to approximate the 90 degree edges we used to ski them with.

I think that most skis come from the factory with edge bevels that are about what the manufacturer wants them to be; the bases of many in-the-wrapper skis could use some a grind before being presented to the customer. High bases (convex) are the most frequent offender in my experience. Edge high (concave) is next. I have noticed that Kastle sends their skis out with a 0.5 base bevel in most cases, about 2 on the side. Fischer (according to the rep with whom I skied 8 pairs on Friday) delivers with 1 and 3. The indies are in general worse than the major brands.

 

[Eleeski]

@Doug Briggs With a handle like "Masters Racer" you will appreciate a good tune. Your focus - even when not in the course - will be on the skills you use in the course. Consistent tunes are important for you always.

I got one day of race training last year. My skis had a problem so I had to borrow skis that were completely inappropriate for GS. The tune was OK - I guess. We weren't getting timed so it wasn't critical. What mattered was the coaching and skills tips that I received. Did bad wax or weak edges cause my lack of skills? No! I found the coaching very useful despite my ski issues.

Most skiers can't get time on racecourses. So the right wax and tune is wasted on them. Good coaching for skills development is not wasted. Spend the limited time and money budget on coaching - not wax. Racing measures the tune to the hundredths - lost when I'm a second behind.

I and the people I ski with need to improve skills to be able to go anywhere comfortably on the mountain. On a mountain like Squaw, that's a tall order. Most mountains have a challenging bump zipper line that anyone can access. A different skillset and different needs for the skis are called for in bumps. Or powder. Or steeps. Or trees. Or the park. Many places where the tune is pretty far down the list of critical factors.

Regarding a new ski shipping at zero base angle, it's less like shipping the wrong tires on a truck but more like shipping at 32psi (for unloaded conditions) when most truck owners are going to load the truck heavily and will need to add air to the tires. It does seem strange for the manufacturer to spend money on a base grind AND beveling when many users would now have to immediately get a new base grind and tune. Ship at zero and let the users choose 0, .5, 1 or whatever is easily filed in. In reality, the manufacturer should test and ship with whatever edges work best for that particular ski and its mission.

I have two pairs of Praxis skis. The first I got retail and they were fantastic out of the wrapper. The second were last year's model that were sitting around the factory for a while. The edges were rather dull and the ski was crappy on the icy patches. There is also some "base burn" (small hairs and a bit of roughness). They probably do need a full tune. With that said, I did a quick 3 degree edge touchup and now absolutely love the skis. I'm not sure it's the indie manufacturer thing or the closeout prep but it didn't take much for me

As a waterski builder and designer, I spend a lot of time balancing the drag of the skis. The best feeling skis are rarely the least draggy skis. Fishscales, heavy texture, features to add drag and other ideas get tested. We do have the boat to overcome the drag so it's not the critical factor. But there's plenty of excess energy at the top of the bumps on West Face as well. Low drag is critical for a racer but not for lots of conditions most of us face snow skiing.

If you're racing, stay serious about the tune. If you are just skiing, budget your time amongst travel, coaching, new equipment, beer (?) and the occasional tune.

Eric

 

[oldschoolskier]

Several years back on Epic there was a very heated discussion on the importance of tuning and the reasons.

One of the issues was safety.

A tune doesn't have to be race perfect but it has to be correct. A poor tune and/or poor wax job actually increases chance of injury as the skis don't do what they are supposed to do when requested.

So think of a tune and wax like tires on your car, maintained you get to the hill, don't you get to call your insurance and miss a day or two of skiing.

 

[Xela]

As a corollary, I've always made sure my kids' skis were sharp and waxed, starting when they were 3. The rationale behind this is that I wanted them to learn how a proper ski feels from day one. I wanted them to learn how to avoid an edge catching and integrate that into their technique. And, I wanted them to learn how to control speed by using turn shape, not relying on slow bases. So far, results are good.

Also, my kids have never yet been on rockered skis. No cheating.

 

[KevinF]

@Eleeski you raise some good points. I generally agree with you -- for most skiers, better technique will lead to faster race times more than a "better tune" will.

I will say, however, that a well tuned ski behaves consistently across all types of snow conditions from slushy spring conditions to ice. A ski that behaves consistently allows you, the pilot, to try to apply whatever new techniques that your coach is trying to get you to perform.

If your skis cleanly release from one turn into the next but then on the next turn do something "funky"... was it your ski's tune that made them catch or was it your technique? If you know your skis are reasonably well waxed with reasonably clean edges, well, that's one variable that gets eliminated. If your skis are doing something "funky", it's you. And knowing that whatever is happening is "me" helps me better apply whatever my coach told me to do.

 

[Josh Matta]

As a corollary, I've always made sure my kids' skis were sharp and waxed, starting when they were 3. The rationale behind this is that I wanted them to learn how a proper ski feels from day one. I wanted them to learn how to avoid an edge catching and integrate that into their technique. And, I wanted them to learn how to control speed by using turn shape, not relying on slow bases. So far, results are good.

Also, my kids have never yet been on rockered skis. No cheating.

with you no cheating policy I think that everyone should ski reverse sidecut skis on hardpack all the time so that they do not use that sidecut to cheat on hardpack.

 

[Eleeski]

Who actually skis hardpack? That's just to get from the chute over to the bump line. Plus hardpack scrapes the klister off my bases.

Eric

 

[Jed Peters]

Who actually skis hardpack? That's just to get from the chute over to the bump line. Plus hardpack scrapes the klister off my bases.

Eric

I ski it, a lot.

But then again, I likely have to brush up on my skills and my fitness. Life gets in the way on the mountain, and I take an occasional groomer. Some days I ski ALL groomers.

To say that a tune doesn't matter is just wrong. What you're saying is wrong, on the whole. Someone even at my daughter's age (7) has been proven to show that a tune matters. Does she know? not at all. Just that her skis worked better and she was allowed to engage, disengage a turn.

Oh yeah, and I've never met anyone who I would call a "skier" that likes a 0 degree edge and base bevel.

See other posts of mine that comment on who I think to be a "skier" and who "skis".

 

[Eleeski]

Jeez Jed, I was joking. I don't really use klister either (do you have some to try?).

However, I do like a zero base bevel. I find it makes the ski very responsive and quick to change edges. When gliding flat, it is a disadvantage as both edges are somewhat engaged so there is a bit of extra drag. Solution, always run slightly from edge to edge - controllable but a bit slower. When in the bumps, it allows quick and subtle edge changes. Also less angulation is needed to get the ski to carve - a tendency that I find useful when I need to get on the other edge as the next bump arrives. On steeps, my angulation is worth 1 extra degree to help hold the edge with the zero starting base angle. In powder and soft snow it is unnoticeable.

Maybe a zero degree base bevel is a shortcut to make up for weak skills. Maybe it requires extra skills to manage it. I'm pretty comfortable with my abilities ("I am the best skier on the mountain!").

And I never said that a tune doesn't matter. I said that it's often taken too seriously. The US Ski team needs to take it seriously. For me and most of the skiers on the mountain - not so much.

Eric

 

[oldschoolskier]

Eleeski, I think at at 0 you taking a lot of risk for ACL injury on shaped skis. I skied 0 base bevel with no detune for over 47 years, but on shaped I strongly recommend a little base bevel, at least 0.5.

Properly tuned skis are safe skis.

 

[smoothrides]

For those in the Truckee/North Tahoe, even Reno area...there are are two great alternatives for tuning...Skis and More, in Truckee and @smoothrides who is a member here. While I haven't personally had skis done by Smoothrides, We do have a Tricia's Latigo's that were tuned by him and just talking to and researching with people who have had their skis done with him, there have been nothing but accolades.

Thanks for the plug @Philpug - I'd love to style out a pair or two for you.

And all tunes are not created equal. Not all tune shops are created equal. Just because a shop has the proper equipment does not mean you will get a good tune. It still comes down to the person running the equipment. Just because the person has all the right tools at home does not mean he knows how to use them correctly. Tuning is art and not everyone is an artist.

I couldn't agree with this more. There are literally thousands of shops with equipment capable of doing amazing things, but it's very often the case that skis are not even close to optimal after the "tune," it's just been slightly improved. Most back shops are just an accessory to retail sales, an after thought, and primarily based on smoke and mirrors. I could do the "tune" that you get in those shops in about 5-10 minutes per pair, excluding base repairs, and to the laymen it would look amazing, but would barely improve the ski. This is the very reason ski tuning is so affordable in many shops, because of the simple fact that if it looks good when it goes back to the customer it's "good enough." All that tune requires is a base repair gun, a wet belt edger or files to make the edge feel sharp, and a cold friction waxing belt for shiny bases. There's virtually no accountability because almost no one is capable of correctly checking bevels, or even really cares.

Your skis generate heat from the friction present whenever a ski slides across snow. The heat can damage bases. Do that long enough and the microscopic pores in your bases get fused together to the point that the base won't accept wax anymore. At that point, your bases are "burned".

The only wax to fix it is to stone grind the bases to get below the heat-damaged section.

Truth. Or if you don't want to stone grind you can break out the BBQ brush!

Is Smoothrides at the (northwest) corner of Alder Creek and 89? I see a big van and a ski tuning sign there anytime I go that way.

Yes sir, you found me, but SR is primarily a pickup and delivery service so I'm not always in the shop, but I can almost always turn skis around in 24 hours if you call for an appointment.

@Jed Peters I prefer a 0 degree base. Others prefer .5 degrees. Still others prefer 1 degree. The factory should offer skis with 0 degree bases so the individual can tune to the personal requirements. Since one can't add material, the proper default is zero. It's not difficult to bevel the base edge.

Part of the assessment of a new ski should be to try to optimize the tune to you and the new ski. It's worth a couple rides stock to see how that particular ski responds. Also probably worth it to try .5 before cutting all the way to 1. You might like something different for a different ski.

@Choucas is in the ballpark with the 5 to 15% estimation of tuning help. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for a ski with a different feel. But you certainly will be able to feel a nice tune - for a while.

Eric

I agree with you that people should try lower bevels first if they are already present before increasing, and that you should be able to feel a nice tune for a while. I would love if skis came at zero from the factory, but usually if they do, it's because they are concave. I'm amazed you prefer no base bevel, that can be pretty rugged, particularly because if it's actually zero the base edge is usually also structured and course. In order to polish that out, you'd have to be removing material and adding some bevel, .25-.5 or so.

I have to respectfully disagree that it's not difficult to bevel the base age, unless you mean over bevel the base edge. Almost no one can do it accurately and consistently by hand, and if you want it polished, it gets even worse, almost always .7 by the time you're done. I've had two pairs of skis come in this year that had a true .5, one came from Edgewise in Stowe, the other was a pair of Head SLs out of the wrapper. Every other pair of tech skis needed to be ground in order to be corrected to a .5, most were in the 1.5-2 degree range even though the previous shops sticker or customer thought it was a .5

 

[cantunamunch]

Have any of you considered that your base bevel preference could be dependent on the ski's torsional stiffness?

NO ski has infinite torsional stiffness - and yet just about every bevel discussion thread makes that assumption.

 

[Uncle-A]

Wouldn't you want a different base bevel on a SL ski than a GS ski because a SL ski has more torsional stiffness than a GS ski?

 

[cantunamunch]

Well, the point is probably clearer if we compare apples to apples and restrict the comparison to turns with similar intent and inputs.

 

[Xela]

with you no cheating policy I think that everyone should ski reverse sidecut skis on hardpack all the time so that they do not use that sidecut to cheat on hardpack.

I like this train of thought. I think I'm going to rip out the metal edges, too.

 

[Choucas]

The story about your skis creating so much heat when they slid over the snow that the pores melt together and keep the bases from absorbing wax is very incredible. I'd like to meet the person who can ski so fast that his/her bases (while moving through a subfreezing medium) generates so much heat from friction that the polyethylene actually turns molten. Since it has been posted on the internet I suppose that it has to be true, but I'd wage that this has never happened.

Bases can experience what is called freezer burn which is a whitening of the base, usually near the edges which will cause the skis to run slower. At the World Championships in Vail many years back with temperatures well below zero and very cold aggressive snow, ski bases were getting seriously damaged by freezer burn. The snow is so cold and abrasive that is tears away at the PE similar to what a very coarse sandpaper would do. This can happen to any base particularly on hard, icy man-made snow that has been through repeated freeze/thaw cycles. Keeping the base waxed regularly help to minimize this. Left unwaxed the base will degrade to a point where it will take a base refinishing to cut away the highly worn base material to expose fresh new PE. You can get a picture of how you pressure your skis by looking at the pattern of abrasion along the length of the ski. Tail gunners will see most of the wear aft of the centerline. Skis that are too stiff or too soft for you will show different patterns as well.

In softer snow conditions, the passage of a ski creates a layer of water where it contacts the snow and wax and base structure helps to break that suction. But no ski, with the possible exception of the skier getting hit by lightning, has very had its base melt while in snow.