Transitions

[Disinterested]

If one tips the new inside foot inside the boot as one flexes that leg, the tip divergence doesn't happen. The ankle-tipping points the forefoot towards the outside of the new turn due to the diagonal angle of the subtalar joint's axis. The ROM is tiny, but it's significant.

I have big problems with this as an absolute statement. You absolutely can tip inside the inside boot and diverge. I have in fact done it many times myself, sometimes willingly, sometimes unwillingly!

In fact, I think one of the most basic problems in this technical area is if anything people are trying to create too much tipping out of the inside ankle joint relative to the amount they are creating tipping by the simple vertical lifting of the inside leg. Both things need to happen, of course.

Aesthetics I guess figure, but there are other ways divergence and o framing can be less functional other than a weight distribution issue. Even within the foot to foot issue, I think sometimes it would actually be easier for some people to control their inside ski's direction if their inside ski was more weight bearing, for people who get too invested in 100% outside ski pressure in all phases and situations, to the exclusion of making the inside leg weight bearing at all.

For example, any situation where it pays because of terrain and snow conditions to have your skis moving in a very consistent direction close to one another, like tight high performance bump skiing. Obviously there are many people who ski very well without parrallel shins in both an O and A framey sense (Ballou, Mike Rogan, etc.), so it's not like it ruins everything, but when it's highly exaggerated you might want to seek to minimise it.

But another big part of what I'm talking about is that sometimes people have things going on with their ability to articulate their outside ankle that need to be solved in a big picture way. Ski industry professionals, myself included, like sometimes to get a bit myopic on one movement pattern or skill area and try to make it the the hammer to every problem's nail.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....In fact, I think one of the most basic problems in this technical area is if anything people are trying to create too much tipping out of the inside ankle joint relative to the amount they are creating tipping by the simple vertical lifting of the inside leg. Both things need to happen, of course.
....Obviously there are many people who ski very well without parrallel shins in both an O and A framey sense (Ballou, Mike Rogan, etc.), so it's not like it ruins everything, but when it's highly exaggerated you might want to seek to minimise it.
....Ski industry professionals, myself included, like sometimes to get a bit myopic on one movement pattern or skill area and try to make it the the hammer to every problem's nail.

Agree agree agree.

 

[Skitechniek]

The master at work.
Uses all sorts of transitions. Those slalom turns are things of beauty, incredibly athleticism.

 

[Chris V.]

I've seen people for example focus very hard on creating tipping starting with the inside ski first and letting the outside be passive, and coming from that just a bigger and bigger o frame without ever addressing some of the issues that might limit the ability to tip the outside foot - but because the main instruction has been the best way to initiate tipping is with the inside, you just get more and more divergence.

Personally, getting an excessive O frame and trouble getting outside foot tipping to match the inside foot has never been an issue for me. It's rather the opposite--I tend to get A framey in transition, and need to focus hard to create an O frame. Perhaps that's because I'm a bit on the knockkneed side. For those more toward the bowlegged end of the spectrum, it might be different. And then misalignment issues could have a big effect--which may be included in the "issues" that you allude to. It just goes to show that everyone has a unique anatomy and personal ingrained movement patterns, so it can't be one size fits all.

That being said, I'm growing to appreciate the benefits that practicing the O frame can bring. I don't believe that any well known pundits advocate actually using a major, easily visible O frame in the majority of turns, although it could be used tactically to where it becomes prominent. Instead, it's primarily a learning device that in polished, expert skiing fades out of sight, though the movement elements that create the O frame remain present. What I find--and again, it could be different for others--is that strong tipping of the inside foot works its way through all the leg joints to create a powerful pull on the outside foot to match the tipping. The challenge thus becomes to develop the ability to resist that force and to prevent, at will, the outside foot from matching the tipping of the inside foot--and through that resistance thus creating the O frame. Going through the exercise enhances the skier's ability to control the action of each foot independently. So, in one application of this concept, the skier should be able to balance and hold a traverse on the little toe edge of the uphill ski, while lightening the downhill foot and tipping it substantially to the little toe side. Then, if the skier all at once lets go of the resistance to rolling off the little toe edge of that uphill ski, that ski will very rapidly and powerfully tip onto its big toe edge, without pivoting, going right into the new turn. Variation in the speed of, and completeness of commitment to letting go of that resistance to tipping over can be used to create carved turns of smaller or larger radius, and turns that are brushed to a greater or lesser degree. So in summary, O framing exercises are a way to explore and gain fine control over the forces that produce tipping of the new outside ski.

In everyday skiing, there will usually be no need to hold an O frame. The more dynamic the turns, the more quickly tipping of the outside foot will follow tipping of the inside foot. The skier isn't going to be exaggerating the tipping of the inside foot, beyond what is needed to produce the chosen turn. The skier isn't going to be balancing on a little toe edge for long, and isn't going to be seeking to maintain an edge angle while doing so. Instead, upon the support of the old outside ski being withdrawn, the new outside ski will start tipping to flat very quickly, and continue through flat to start tipping onto the new edge.

Unless the skier chooses to hold the skis flat for a moment, which is another interesting way to manage the forces.

It could be viewed as an application of the principal that to reach a high level of skill, a skier must develop the ability to balance on any one of the four edges (also on any one flat ski) at any time, and the ability to move from any one to any other at will, in a controlled manner.

 

[Chris V.]

The master at work. Uses all sorts of transitions. Those slalom turns are things of beauty, incredibly athleticism.

I can imagine myself developing that degree of quickness, and that degree of flexibility. I have trouble imagining myself applying that quickness and flexibility while dealing with forces of the magnitude he's generating in those turns.

 

[François Pugh]

Aesthetics figures into this, doesn't it? That exaggerated O-frame (in the learning drills) sure is ugly.

But tip divergence (that's what you mean by "divergence," right?) is a functional issue, yes? It causes stance width inconsistency. Tip divergence from inside ski focus is unnecessary and delivers no benefit.

When that tip divergence indicates too much weight on the inside and too little weight on the outside ski, now there's a true functional problem. There are fixes for the weight distribution thing that don't lead to ignoring the inside ski/foot/leg, however. This usually involves the upper body and where the CoM is relative to the BoS. Or shoving that outside ski outward.

If one tips the new inside foot inside the boot as one flexes that leg, the tip divergence doesn't happen. The ankle-tipping points the forefoot towards the outside of the new turn due to the diagonal angle of the subtalar joint's axis. This pointing, despite the tiny ROM, is significant enough to remove the tip divergence unless the skier is weighting that new inside ski.

I've been there, done that. I experienced tip divergence when I tipped the inside ski as per instructions I was following at the time, when the tipped inside ski carved to the right and the outside ski did not match the inside ski.
I'm guessing the majority of folk automatically tip the outside ski, but I'm special.

It's just an anecdotal data point, but it shows what can happen, and no I did not have too much weight on the inside ski. It's simple physics and geometry, and doing what you think you're doing as opposed to not having good proprioception.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Francois, you just had superior foot/leg independence. Most folks don't.

For most folks, the outside leg follows along without any instructions. Sometimes it's too eager since it's always gotten all the attention so it tries to be first. It's rare that the outside foot/leg waits politely to hear what it should do.

 

[Disinterested]

I've been there, done that. I experienced tip divergence when I tipped the inside ski as per instructions I was following at the time, when the tipped inside ski carved to the right and the outside ski did not match the inside ski.
I'm guessing the majority of folk automatically tip the outside ski, but I'm special.

It's just an anecdotal data point, but it shows what can happen, and no I did not have too much weight on the inside ski. It's simple physics and geometry, and doing what you think you're doing as opposed to not having good proprioception.

Yup.

 

[razie]

I experienced tip divergence when I tipped the inside ski as per instructions I was following at the time, when the tipped inside ski carved to the right and the outside ski did not match the inside ski.
[...]
and no I did not have too much weight on the inside ski.

...sure you did or in the immortal words of Bill, " define *too much* "

no weight=no carving, little weight=little carving - more drifting than carving, more weight=more carving. For that foot to diverge uncontrollably, likely there was correspondingly enough pressure to yank it away... Also, there is a little-used muscle used to keep the feet together, which can be used at low inside ski weight...

So this thread, like others, cycled back to inside foot tipping - there's much easier ways to get entertained these days, just thought I'd mention it...