Transition from Up-unweighting to Down-unweighting

[razie]

Mea culpa... it is/was a pretty uncommon sequence of events, words and coincidences....



Cheers

 

[Corgski]

I actually thought I did pretty well considering the extended layoff and the first time since I was 14 on a ski shorter than 203cm, and considering most of of the racers ahead of me never skied on non-shaped skis, I guess it's not just me that's being hard on myself!

No, it was the opposite. The fact that you had not skied for 25 years and suddenly you are on advanced skis, wearing advanced recreational race boots and talking about your slalom time was not deemed to be credible by some. Add that to the fact that that your question could easily be considered bait to discuss what has been surprisingly controversial topics. I think what was not understood was that relative to the more exclusive ski racing cultures elsewhere, the Midwest is very open and relaxed, heck I have seen invitations for beginner and early intermediate adult skiers to join the local ski racing program. I am guessing your fellow racers probably encouraged you to jump right back in. Your ski hills may suck out there but I as far as I am concerned the ski culture there is the best.

 

[CpRMtSkiSkool92]

Mea culpa... it is/was a pretty uncommon sequence of events, words and coincidences....



Cheers

I thought so too razie, although based on the PMs I've gotten from quite a few members here, maybe not that uncommon???

Had I thought that anything in my posts was controversial, extraordinary or otherwise I wouldn't have posted it obviously. I'm not seeking approval on an anonymous internet forum, and I certainly didn't expect a sincere inquiry to get dissected or the authenticity questioned the way it did. I don't see how any of it is disingenuous, but some communities are more critical and judgmental than others, and there is a history here that I was not aware of.. when Tricia explained that to me the criticality of the replies and 'factions' behind some of the responses became clear to me.

There's probably not anything more productive that can come from leaving this thread open, but thank you to Tricia for opening it up and allowing me to respond. Also thank you very much to everyone that PMed me and responded with positive suggestions in this thread. I now have many excellent resources to pull from and apply to the rest of my skiing years if I so choose.

 

[Tricia]

These ski school threads always go a little sideways IMO,

I actually thought I did pretty well considering the extended layoff and the first time since I was 14 on a ski shorter than 203cm, and considering most of of the racers ahead of me never skied on non-shaped skis,

And on gear that is vastly different than you were on when you were 14.



Stoked to have another Michigander here.
There are quite a few of us.
I live in Tahoe now, but lived within 25 miles of Cadillac for 44 years of my life.
If you want to chill on the site and see some of the camaraderie, you can follow our adventures during the SS Pugski September Ski Resort and Hall of Fame tour.

 

[4ster]

From the sounds of it I don’t think you were ever a heel pusher. Heel carver maybe in the mold of a Tomba or Girardelli but not a pusher. Your previous ski racing skills will still reward, and serve you well. It’s more that you’ll need to revisit the sequence, D.I.R.T (duration, intensity, rate and timing) of your movements. You likely skied with very late edge & pressure & did some stepping...

...compared to modern technique where things are more parallel & there is an emphasis on early edge & pressure which leads to an earlier release. Much more subtle movements in all planes & shorter skis demand that the skier remain more centered. In some situations that is best accomplished with ILE, other times releasing the skis on a flexion.

Although up-unweighting & down-unweighting may still happen in modern skiing it is deemphasized & more of an outcome. Instead of up & down think more in terms of moving in directional planes & flexion/extension



I see no conflicts or controversy. I do not know which posts were deleted but I’m sure I read them all before that time & did not sense any conflict but I am pretty naive

 

[CpRMtSkiSkool92]

From the sounds of it I don’t think you were ever a heel pusher. Heel carver maybe in the mold of a Tomba or Girardelli but not a pusher. Your previous ski racing skills will still reward, and serve you well. It’s more that you’ll need to revisit the sequence, D.I.R.T (duration, intensity, rate and timing) of your movements. You likely skied with very late edge & pressure & did some stepping...
View attachment 82655

...compared to modern technique where things are more parallel & there is an emphasis on early edge & pressure which leads to an earlier release. Much more subtle movements in all planes & shorter skis demand that the skier remain more centered. In some situations that is best accomplished with ILE, other times releasing the skis on a flexion.
View attachment 82654
Although up-unweighting & down-unweighting may still happen in modern skiing it is deemphasized & more of an outcome. Think more in terms of moving in directional planes & flexion/extension



I see no conflicts or controversy. I do not know which posts were deleted but I’m sure I read them all before that time & did not sense any conflict but I am pretty naive

Marc Girardelli was my idol and very much the style I emulated in the gates when I was younger! Heavy hip angulation low to the slope at the gate and enough tail pressure to literally catapult across the fall line. I think the term coaches used back then was ‘j-turn’, and it was a very loaded, binary move...nothing subtle about it.

Your post is very reminiscent of a pm I received from another member. He compared the modern carved race turn to a sine wave, very gradual on/off pressure compared to the ‘on’ or ‘off’ edging that is more inituative to me at this point. That analogy, the ‘infinity’ move sticky visual at the top of this forum and your comments really drive that concept home.

Thank you so much, that really helps!

 

[4ster]

Marc Girardelli was my idol and very much the style I emulated in the gates when I was younger! Heavy hip angulation low to the slope at the gate and enough tail pressure to literally catapult across the fall line. I think the term coaches used back then was ‘j-turn’, and it was a very loaded, binary move...nothing subtle about it.

Your post is very reminiscent of a pm I received from another member. He compared the modern carved race turn to a sine wave, very gradual on/off pressure compared to the ‘on’ or ‘off’ edging that is more initiative to me at this point. That analogy, the ‘infinity’ move sticky visual at the top of this forum and your comments really drive that concept home.

Thank you so much, that really helps!

Straight & Late

 

[CpRMtSkiSkool92]

Straight & Late
View attachment 82659

Yes!!!

And that picture of Marc is a perfect (although extreme based on the athlete he was) depiction of the loaded tail type turns that I grew up with, and still use since honestly its what feels 'right' to me since that's the technique I grew up with and invested hundreds of hours into.

This is going to be more of a mental tear-down and relearning of what feels 'right' than anything, isn't it???

 

[4ster]

This is going to be more of a mental tear-down and relearning of what feels 'right' than anything, isn't it???

Pretty much & lots of patience. Modern skis are capable of amazing things!
This is a video that has been posted many times on this site by myself and others. The point is that even the best technical skier in the world needs to practice and begin with the basics even after a short layoff.

 

[François Pugh]

BTW @Jilly you were right, those old ‘long’ boards collecting dust in my basement are 7s. I think the last year or two of the 7s in the early 90s shares the same graphics the 9s had shortly after

Im a little nervous about continuing to pull them out on occasion as they’ll probably reinforce bad habits. Maybe after a few years of applying a proper modern technique I can pull them out again just for fun.

I say take them out to play once or twice a year; the more months you spend not skiing the old straights, the more hours it will take you to remember how to ski them. Besides, if anything, it will highlight the differences.

I still take my antique SG skis out every now and then (not on my local 250' vertical speed bump). My main problem every time getting used to them is the 70 m side cut radius (your SL is likely closer to 40 m) makes me end up too far inside the turn. Simply tipping the skis on boiler plate will dial up a turn, but you have to tip them to a 60 degree angle to dial up a 35 m turn. I'm used to skiing my SL skis which have a 13 m side cut radius. A big difference in technique is if you want to carve a tighter on the old straight skis you have to deliberately bend bend the fore-body of the ski with extra tip pressure BEFORE tipping the skis, and give up a little purity of the carve until the ski engages. That move is not required on the shapely modern skis, but knowing how to lead from the tip and progressively engage the rest of the ski helps with turn refinement - sort of a hint of the old move, but nowhere near as much.

 

[Average Joe]

This video posted on another thread may be helpful:


The skier in this video sure seems to keep a stable pelvis with minimal up and down motion during transition.

 

[Tricia]

Yes!!!

And that picture of Marc is a perfect (although extreme based on the athlete he was) depiction of the loaded tail type turns that I grew up with, and still use since honestly its what feels 'right' to me since that's the technique I grew up with and invested hundreds of hours into.

This is going to be more of a mental tear-down and relearning of what feels 'right' than anything, isn't it???

You will be surprised how it will come to you. Between @Karl B in Michigan and good folks like @4ster you're in good hands.

Pretty much & lots of patience. Modern skis are capable of amazing things!
This is a video that has been posted many times on this site by myself and others. The point is that even the best technical skier in the world needs to practice and begin with the basics even after a short layoff.

I feel like I need a new season tune up with you.