Train the trainer

[Mikey]

Hi all, first post. I had a very small handful of posts over at ES and is the reason why I am a big fan of Big Sky. Read a post from markojp so thought I'd check it out here.

Long post, but I could really use some help with teaching my partner (Nat). Back story and a video follows.

Last early December I brought Nat to Big Sky. She is from another country and had never seen snow before. I wanted to squeeze in a week of skiing before we headed back overseas to see if she would like it and if she did like enough, we would return in 2017 for a full season. This was actually the week before officially opening but they still had classes. I signed both of us up. I got another Intermediate class and she was obviously a beginner. Good news was that she was the only person in the class!

We met up at lunch and she had a smile on her face. I didn't ask too much, but the instructor said she was doing well. We swung by again around 3pm and she had a frown on her face. I know the frown and I know she was really unhappy. I watched and became irritated when I saw the instructor pulling her behind him with her hanging on to his poles. Nat was in tears that night. Sad, angry and did NOT want to get back on the mountain the next day. I got her calmed down and talked to her about the day. Apparently she had some real problems turning and had fallen down a bunch of times with the last time banging her helmeted head pretty bad. In that instructor's defense, I'm sure he was just trying to end the day on a decent note. As an instructor how much time do you give yourself with a new student before you realize your method isn't working and maybe go at it a different way?

At any rate, the next day, I would teach her. Another lesson with a stranger just wasn't in the cards. I was nervous.

First thing I did was get her up on the bunny and just cycle between snow plow and more straight skis. Just getting comfortable with basic speed control. We did about 5 runs like that.

Time for turning and this is where she got nervous from the previous day's lesson. I really didn't know what to do until I realized that if we did a diagonal that she would really be doing a really large turn. So I took her up to the top of the bunny slope and lined her up on the opposite corner of the conveyor entrance. To her, it was just a straight line. I had her follow me and I aimed slight downhill first then started turning ever so slightly. Once we made it to the bottom I had her look back up to see our tracks. Guess what? She had completed a really big right hand turn. First smile of the day and with that initial learning out of the way, she was having a little bit of fun. We progressed to doing a few really large left and right turn runs.

Time to work on real turns. Again, mental block. Usual fear, back on skis, etc. Brain lock. Doubt and a frown was starting to return. But I remembered watching some online videos and this one in particular: (we have been watching all the videos in that series) Once I had her do that (putting both hands on a particular knee), it was magic. She immediately started turning (and immediately started smiling again). We worked on that more and more until she was ready to go to the steeper bunny hill section. By the end of the day I had her on a pretty rough Mr. K which didn't go well but as well as I thought it would go I wanted her to feel some new fear and make some mistakes. We talked about it at night and I told her not to worry. The brain will start working out the problems during sleep and you'll be better the next day. The next day, we started back on the bunny slope to just reinforce the basics then back to Mr. K. By day 4 she was making it down the open green runs without any falls. All day smiles and having fun!

I also videoed runs which we sat down and analyzed.

Success! We are completely set with accommodations and season passes for the 2017 ski season at Big Sky! We also have a lot to work on. We are now working on getting in shape and ready for new season.

Nat is Thai and while her English is pretty good, quite a bit can get lost in translation. Also, I know her really well, her personality, and how she learns. For now, at least until she is comfortable on Blue runs (which won't be long) I'll need to teach her. That's not a bad thing because it'll force me to get better and pay more attention to what I'm doing. At some point, she'll be up to my level and then we'll be taking a lesson together.

I'm going to provide the link below to a video I made of her skiing. I'd like to get some opinions on how I get her going in the right direction. There are quite a few ways to do this, and like I said, I know how she learns so I'd like to read about your various opinions and then I'll apply them in a way she'll understand.

- skip to 1:00 to see where she starts. I'd just turn off the sound. The wind noise is annoying. Also, I made the mistake of allowing Youtube to "improve" the shakiness in the video and now there is some wierdness happening.

Cheers

 

[markojp]

Mikey, more tomorrow when I'm awake and lucid, but as a starting point, if you have a ski lesson that has clearly gone sideways, always speak to the manager on duty or higher. There's no reason that she should have had such a poor experience. I say this because in most all cases, most people in your situation will hit a wall in their ability to help their 'trainee' and not realize that the movement patterns they are inadvertently creating will take serious work to undo for them to advance much beyond the intermediate level. You run the risk of creating a terminal intermediate. Given that Nat has only skied a week, what as can say is that she appears to be very athletic, relatively strong, feels relatively comfortable with speed, and looks highly teachable. Personally I love working with students like this.

Now I have no idea what happened during her ski school lesson, but since it was the afternoon of her first day, I'd venture to guess that fatigue was an element of the problem. Also, while not wanting to throw anyone under the bus, less experienced instructors have a tendency to over teach. Pulling a first time skier down the hill would create fear for most adult beginners. They want to slow down, not pulled down. Conceptually, I understand why the instructor did what they did, but in my experience, pulling a la the tractor tow is best left for upper level work. I've only done this with very good skiers and in particular with staff working toward higher certification levels. Whatever the case may have been, it's always ok to discuss a poor experience with the school management. They will work hard to make it right. It's very important to create a foundation that can easily be built upon rather than having to undo things to progress in the future. Give it another go. Ask for an experienced instructor and let them know what happened last winter.


Now to Nat. Where she is now, we'd want to simply work on a couple of small things working on tipping her outside foot down the hill to flatten the ski and release the outside edge. We might add a bit of active steering to the mix in a 'here, try this' way that begins to allow the feet to move independently from her body. This is what you as her trainer will have the most trouble with getting consistent results. From there, we can work on turn shape to control speed rather than braking/creating friction, and with guided mileage, she should start matching to parallel on easy terrain quite rapidly. The other thing we notice is her inability to flex her ankles which makes it very difficult for her to keep her mass Over the arch of her foot and maintain cuff contact with her shin at the front of the boot. You see the result when the hill steepens, and the turn becomes even more initiated from turning her shoulders and rushed to completion because she's having trouble moving forward along the length of the ski. This could be the rental boot, it could be physiological, could be psychological. In any case, it's very common for beginning skiers, but needs to be addressed quickly! The right instructor would be able to sort the cause in short order, but in any case, this leads us to the one investment other than lessons that is pivotal for her enjoyment of the sport.... Boots that fit and flex properly. Don't skimp and get her to a well regarded boot fitter.

Everything I've said is simplified and without a detailed movement analysis for you. I'm sure others will want to chime in with more direct instructional advice. In a nutshell, what she needs to work on is simply flattening the outside ski toward the new turn direction (this can happen at the feet without the 'up/down'... people are always amazed how small tipping movements in the boot can effect the ski!) and then beginning to work on some simple steering that allow the legs to move (twist/rotate) under her pelvis and stable torso. This is the upper/lower body separation that's fundamental for progressing beyond the intermediate level. Turns start from the feet, not the body. From there, with some time and mileage, we can ask her to bring her inside ski underneath her to match the outside foot, and voila, she'll be making parallel turns on the terrain we see in your video. From there, we can begin to work on other things that will help her do the same on slightly steeper terrain. One small step for trainee, one great leap for trainer-kind. Ok... Back to sleep for me.

 

[Mikey]

Thanks markojp. I definitely do not want her picking up any bad habits and the moment I feel like I can't steer her in the right direction we'll talk about it and get her in a lesson. I just don't want to take a step backward (getting frustrated and disheartened) as long as we are progressing in the right way. I've introduced Nat to many different things and she always has a point where she gets really frustrated (with herself) and angry. At that point we have to take a step back, take a deep breath an maybe just stop what we are doing for a while. I think she is a natural athlete that will surpass me on the mountain pretty quick. I've told her that and that the pressure is really on me to step up my game (moguls completely vex me)!

Yes, the boot might have been contributing somewhat and I also think she was fighting some initial fear. Nat has a pretty major bunion on her left foot. We tried on a few different boots. The Lange boots we purchased are fairly stiff. More an intermediate/advanced boot, but, it was the most comfortable and I was hoping she could sort of grow into them. She's complained about foot pain with some pretty flexible hiking shoes but not once did she complain about foot pain or numbness/cold toes during the week. I was really worried about that beforehand, so I feel like I want to work with the boots. I just sat down with Nat, brought up the video and explained what we need to do and she doesn't feel like getting some flex on the boot will be a problem. Having said that, I don't have a problem purchasing some other boots pretty quick if we can't get past the flex issue.

 

[markojp]

A good fitter can work around a bunion with a punch. And her Langes can easily be softened if needed and your ability as a trainer relies on knowing not only the 'what' but also the 'why' of everything posted above. Without the first two, the 'how' is often mistimed and/or misguided.

If you do this yourself, post video for feedback. The other thing you're bound to hear from others is the peril of teaching your spouse/S.O..., it often ends poorly. That said, it can in some instances work when the trainee is allowed to just ski and the trainer keeps their input down to about 1/20th of what they think they need to say.

 

[Mikey]

Ya, the fitter punched out the left boot for her bunion, but the overall comfort of the Lange is what stood out when trying the boots on. There was an adjustment on the boot that mechanically allowed them to flex more, but they were still fairly stiff. Is there something else that can be done to soften them up a bit?

 

[markojp]

Ya, the fitter punched out the left boot for her bunion, but the overall comfort of the Lange is what stood out when trying the boots on. There was an adjustment on the boot that mechanically allowed them to flex more, but they were still fairly stiff. Is there something else that can be done to soften them up a bit?

Yes. The top of the lower shell can be trimmed/notched. She should also have her range of motion (ankle) evaluated, and there could also be issues with smaller boot sizes and binding ramp angle. It's not rocket science, but it is a calculus to see the whole picture and manage the variables. This is where the great fitter or fitter/instructor combo comes in.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I wonder if the instructor was leading her down the hill because it was the end of the lesson and he wanted to get her to the bottom of the slope without another fall.

From the video, I see an outside ski dominance that might be appropriate except she appears to get pressure on that ski by moving her pelvis over that foot. Look at about 3 minutes in.

The result of moving the pelvis over the foot is a flatter, less efficient turning ski. She needs to make the weight transfer by lightening the new inside ski and tipping that foot toward the little toe side to flatten that ski.

 

[markojp]

I wonder if the instructor was leading her down the hill because it was the end of the lesson and he wanted to get her to the bottom of the slope without another fall.

From the video, I see an outside ski dominance that might be appropriate except she appears to get pressure on that ski by moving her pelvis over that foot. Look at about 3 minutes in.

The result of moving the pelvis over the foot is a flatter, less efficient turning ski. She needs to make the weight transfer by lightening the new inside ski and tipping that foot toward the little toe side to flatten that ski.

All about the timing and where that flattening happens for sure. Absolutely on the 'little toe' tipping. It all happens from the feet. I still see her initiation starting from turning her body in the new direction.

 

[Jilly]

She is doing so good for 4 days. I'll add to the above that she appears to be really stiff. I can tell from the pole position. Maybe take away the poles for trip down, you carry them in case of a flat spot or fall. Hands on the outside/downhill knee will help too. Just get her to relax and the skis will turn easier. (I'm a CSIA 2, but the way)

I know 2 lady ski instructors at Big Sky. Both are Ski Diva's. I'll get you Laura's last name, because all I can think of skisailor for your next trip.

 

[Mikey]

I wonder if the instructor was leading her down the hill because it was the end of the lesson and he wanted to get her to the bottom of the slope without another fall.

From the video, I see an outside ski dominance that might be appropriate except she appears to get pressure on that ski by moving her pelvis over that foot. Look at about 3 minutes in.

The result of moving the pelvis over the foot is a flatter, less efficient turning ski. She needs to make the weight transfer by lightening the new inside ski and tipping that foot toward the little toe side to flatten that ski.

Yes, I think he was just trying to end the day on a "positive" note. It seems like she is "pushing" that outside ski instead of getting her weight on it. We've been watching the 3.x and 4.x videos in this series: . Stopping it in sections and comparing body position with Nat in her video. I've also explained to her what you are saying and matching that up with the video.

She understands and we'll keep at it.

 

[Mikey]

She is doing so good for 4 days. I'll add to the above that she appears to be really stiff. I can tell from the pole position. Maybe take away the poles for trip down, you carry them in case of a flat spot or fall. Hands on the outside/downhill knee will help too. Just get her to relax and the skis will turn easier. (I'm a CSIA 2, but the way)

I know 2 lady ski instructors at Big Sky. Both are Ski Diva's. I'll get you Laura's last name, because all I can think of skisailor for your next trip.

Yes, she is very stiff. We both laugh about her "Harley arms". That's my fault. She was really back on her skis and having a very difficult time on Mr. K. I drilled in to her to get her arms up and forward try get her body forward. That worked and got her down the hill and enjoying the slopes, but we'll need to get that corrected quickly. I wasn't all that worried since it was the next to the last day and we wouldn't be back for another year. After watching her video many times, she knows what we need to work on when we get back. We used the hands on the outside/downhill knee on the first day I was helping her to get her to turn. Our plan is to spend at least the first half of our first day back on the bunny slope working on fundamentals.

I'd appreciate you getting me Laura's name. I think after a few days and she's more comfortable, she'll be ready for another go at a lesson.

 

[jimmy]

Hey @Mikey you got some great advice here. I watched the video you posted of Nat and she is going to be a great skier. Please follow up with skisailor/Laura. She is a great skier, solid instructor and a lot of fun to ski with. A suggestion, if I may would be to consider taking the lesson with Nat and Laura and let Laura "Train the Trainer".

Have a great season.