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Trail Use and Wildlife Encounters

raytseng

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MOD NOTE: This thread was started from posts in the Funnies thread, in order to pull the discussion into a single more appropriate place.


And this one is nicely entertaining...

I'm not really sure of the measurement of the length of a bike (2 bike lengths = 6 feet???), but it still made me chuckle.
I liked it, except the ignorance of the mountain lion as being a deadly danger to humans, spreading that trope just reinforces the fear and killing of mountain lions. If they wanted to go for humor could've used something seemingly harmless like a killer deer or maybe a killer bunny that takes the bad hiker out (point of fact that deer is the deadliest animal to man, causing 100x more human fatalities than mountain lions-more in 1 year than all 100years of records).
 
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David Chaus

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If they wanted to go for humor could've used something seemingly harmless like a killer deer or maybe a killer bunny that takes the bad hiker out (point of fact that deer is the deadliest animal to man, causing 100x more human fatalities than mountain lions-more in 1 year than all 100years of records).
I did not know that.

BTW I am refraining from over-using a Killer Rabbit reference.
 

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I did not know that.

BTW I am refraining from over-using a Killer Rabbit reference.
Sure... but it's not an apples to apples comparison either. "Death by deer" is mostly because we hit them with our cars I'd think. That's very different - psychologically at least - than being hunted and killed by a predator. And therefore gets a very different reaction from people.

(Can that killer rabbit reference be overused? I thought it was a "classic" at this point, and always warranted use.)
 
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raytseng

raytseng

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Especially with a british narrator, easily could've slipped in the killer rabbit, I'm sure he has the whole scene ready to go from memory.

I happen to bring it up because just 2weeks ago I had a long mountain lion sighting on the trail. Once in a lifetime (on the breathtaking lucky side, not a safety issue). I reported it both to local pd as well as park officials. Local PD posted the pics I sent to their facebook page. Majority just liked the biiiig kitty pics as they were somewhat posing, and had jokes and a relief and escape from the crazy times we are in, but some reacted out of fear, and only takes a minority of people to ruin everything.

lion_cropped.jpg
 
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raytseng

raytseng

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Sure... but it's not an apples to apples comparison either. "Death by deer" is mostly because we hit them with our cars I'd think. That's very different - psychologically at least - than being hunted and killed by a predator. And therefore gets a very different reaction from people.

(Can that killer rabbit reference be overused? I thought it was a "classic" at this point, and always warranted use.)
Even if you switch to an apples-to-apples comparison and switching from "animal-related" incident to straight up "animal-attack", the deer vs mtn lion attacks are still probably higher. So many deer gorings (but it's often armed hunters vs antlered deer so that's just a fair fight then right?)
 
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dbostedo

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Even if you switch to an apples-to-apples comparison and switching from "animal-related" incident to straight up "animal-attack", the deer vs mtn lion attacks are still probably higher. So many deer gorings (but it's often armed hunters vs antlered deer so that's just a fair fight then right?)
True. A lot more people have been attacked by deer, or elk, or boar, etc. than by predators like bears or mountain lions. (In part because there's a lot more of the non-predators.)

I do wonder if there still is something to the psychology that a deer may hurt, or even kill you, but isn't trying to hunt/eat you like a bear or mountain lion might.

Just be glad we don't have pet giant squid:

1590094075399.png
 
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raytseng

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I do wonder if there still is something to the psychology that a deer may hurt, or even kill you, but isn't trying to hunt/eat you like a bear or mountain lion might.

View attachment 102946

Very true, I think it's the general power dynamic towards humans, not necessarily in a predator I want to eat or harm you, but I'm in charge and I can end you just because. With my Mt Lion sighting, even with the recommended shouting and handwaving, just like you see sometimes see with house cats, the big kitty gave no reaction, stares you down with a "I don't give a F" face and that staring contest just drains your confidence away. Indeed the majestic king/queen of their territory.
 
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Pat AKA mustski

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Especially with a british narrator, easily could've slipped in the killer rabbit, I'm sure he has the whole scene ready to go from memory.

I happen to bring it up because just 2weeks ago I had a long mountain lion sighting on the trail. Once in a lifetime (on the breathtaking lucky side, not a safety issue). I reported it both to local pd as well as park officials. Local PD posted the pics I sent to their facebook page. Majority just liked the biiiig kitty pics as they were somewhat posing, and had jokes and a relief and escape from the crazy times we are in, but some reacted out of fear, and only takes a minority of people to ruin everything.

View attachment 102944
When I live in San Juan Capistrano, CA., we had a huge problem when mountain lions came down into the town. They actually attacked bike riders on the paved trail. One rider died and another was badly injured. He only survived because his wife beat the lion with her bike. We had to close the bike path, and teachers had to walk to the path near the school and tell kids to ride on the street at the end of the day. It took the authorities quite awhile to catch and release the lions.
 
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raytseng

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When I live in San Juan Capistrano, CA., we had a huge problem when mountain lions came down into the town. They actually attacked bike riders on the paved trail. One rider died and another was badly injured. He only survived because his wife beat the lion with her bike. We had to close the bike path, and teachers had to walk to the path near the school and tell kids to ride on the street at the end of the day. It took the authorities quite awhile to catch and release the lions.
I don't discount this story or this event, but yea a lot of the people also had this same reaction in the facebook comments I was involved with, and brought up a lot of these rare anedoctal events which generated a lot of misplaced fear. Just needs to include the context of the extreme rarity of a mountain lion attack, way more rare than you'd even think (compared to other wild animals or like domestic dog (and even curious subsets like the extremely rare Golden Retriever attack), or other rare and wacky causes of death like lightening strike).

Just keep in mind, 1 event shouldn't guide all of wildlife management. You don't go around killing every dog because there is 1 vicious dog. There is also a wildlife management theory that if you "remove" (lol) the established "well-behaved" lion from an area, you are just opening up that territory for a new teenage male lion to come in that doesn't know the local human boundaries as well and your intention to reduce interactions backfires. It's like killing Mufasa and Simba, just to let Scar take over. Plus if you remove a lion to save 1 attack a decade, perhaps that action may have just caused 5 people to die per year from the kamikaze deer which the lions were helping control. There is balance in everything and best to upset it as little as possible.
 
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Jerez

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Especially with a british narrator, easily could've slipped in the killer rabbit, I'm sure he has the whole scene ready to go from memory.

I happen to bring it up because just 2weeks ago I had a long mountain lion sighting on the trail. Once in a lifetime (on the breathtaking lucky side, not a safety issue). I reported it both to local pd as well as park officials. Local PD posted the pics I sent to their facebook page. Majority just liked the biiiig kitty pics as they were somewhat posing, and had jokes and a relief and escape from the crazy times we are in, but some reacted out of fear, and only takes a minority of people to ruin everything.

View attachment 102944
Beautiful animal. Healthy!
 

oldschoolskier

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I don't discount this story or this event, but yea a lot of the people also had this same reaction in the facebook comments I was involved with, and brought up a lot of these rare anedoctal events which generated a lot of misplaced fear. Just needs to include the context of the extreme rarity of a mountain lion attack, way more rare than you'd even think (compared to other wild animals or like domestic dog (and even curious subsets like the extremely rare Golden Retriever attack), or other rare and wacky causes of death like lightening strike).

Just keep in mind, 1 event shouldn't guide all of wildlife management. You don't go around killing every dog because there is 1 vicious dog. There is also a wildlife management theory that if you "remove" (lol) the established "well-behaved" lion from an area, you are just opening up that territory for a new teenage male lion to come in that doesn't know the local human boundaries as well and your intention to reduce interactions backfires. It's like killing Mufasa and Simba, just to let Scar take over. Plus if you remove a lion to save 1 attack a decade, perhaps that action may have just caused 5 people to die per year from the kamikaze deer which the lions were helping control. There is balance in everything and best to upset it as little as possible.
My friend, read a book call “Don’t get eaten”. No joke, most dangerous for potential of attack as they are very territorial and curious. They will come and check you out even if they see you from the other mountain top. Secondly anyone under 5’ is considered a lunchable, everyone bigger just a more difficult lunch.
 
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raytseng

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My friend, read a book call “Don’t get eaten”. No joke, most dangerous for potential of attack as they are very territorial and curious. They will come and check you out even if they see you from the other mountain top. Secondly anyone under 5’ is considered a lunchable, everyone bigger just a more difficult lunch.
Thank you my friend, I appreciate the concern, this lion was nonaggressive. There was reason for even having this sighting at all and the behavior was logical. I put it together later, as they are typically shy, the details of which are probably too boring for this audience but i included in my sighting report to the CA fish and game head of lion research. This habitat has plenty of her preferred deer for food, and other humans were to my position shortly. The picture is zoomed in and cropped, so she was actually at quite a distance and mtn lion protocols/best practices were followed. if you've read some of my other posts you'll know I am one who like procedures, instructions and the proper order of things and generally risk averse.
My take away was more of a connection to nature experience and quite majestic rather than fear. After the encounter, i did go down the internet mtn lion rabbit hole for a bit learning more on the latest research practices and management of them.
 
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Tim Hodgson

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An all too common naive Disney view of wildlife.
Bear Capture.JPG


500 lbs. Extremely aggressive. Relocated pink ear tagged bear from Nevada. Chased the El Dorado County Trapper on horseback the month before I caught him.
 
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skibob

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Especially with a british narrator, easily could've slipped in the killer rabbit, I'm sure he has the whole scene ready to go from memory.

I happen to bring it up because just 2weeks ago I had a long mountain lion sighting on the trail. Once in a lifetime (on the breathtaking lucky side, not a safety issue). I reported it both to local pd as well as park officials. Local PD posted the pics I sent to their facebook page. Majority just liked the biiiig kitty pics as they were somewhat posing, and had jokes and a relief and escape from the crazy times we are in, but some reacted out of fear, and only takes a minority of people to ruin everything.

View attachment 102944
Thanks for sharing. Where was the photo taken? We've had bears, bobcats, foxes and deer on our block. And just a few weeks ago we had a deer get in our (6' fenced) backyard. I believe it was running from a mountain lion. And we live in Santa Rosa city limits!

I should add, my curiosity is about understanding their habits. I don't have any problem with them, but I do want to understand where they are and how they behave. I walk the dog every night before bed. I pay attention to her and if she is nervous, we don't go that way. One night she was unhappy about either direction from the house so I walked her around the backyard on a leash (not that our fence would keep out a mountain lion, bobcat, or even deer or bear). We do have at least one known mountain lion in our vicinity, although its never been sighted on our street that I know of.
 
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Jerez

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Thanks for sharing. Where was the photo taken? We've had bears, bobcats, foxes and deer on our block. And just a few weeks ago we had a deer get in our (6' fenced) backyard. I believe it was running from a mountain lion. And we live in Santa Rosa city limits!

I should add, my curiosity is about understanding their habits. I don't have any problem with them, but I do want to understand where they are and how they behave. I walk the dog every night before bed. I pay attention to her and if she is nervous, we don't go that way. One night she was unhappy about either direction from the house so I walked her around the backyard on a leash (not that our fence would keep out a mountain lion, bobcat, or even deer or bear). We do have at least one known mountain lion in our vicinity, although its never been sighted on our street that I know of.
There is an excellent book that is somewhere between general public and academic titled "Cougar: Ecology & Conservation" by Maurice Hornocker and Sharon Negri.
 
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raytseng

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Thanks for sharing. Where was the photo taken? We've had bears, bobcats, foxes and deer on our block. And just a few weeks ago we had a deer get in our (6' fenced) backyard. I believe it was running from a mountain lion. And we live in Santa Rosa city limits!

I should add, my curiosity is about understanding their habits. I don't have any problem with them, but I do want to understand where they are and how they behave. I walk the dog every night before bed. I pay attention to her and if she is nervous, we don't go that way. One night she was unhappy about either direction from the house so I walked her around the backyard on a leash (not that our fence would keep out a mountain lion, bobcat, or even deer or bear). We do have at least one known mountain lion in our vicinity, although its never been sighted on our street that I know of.
This was in the sweeney ridge trail area in san bruno, administered by golden gate rec area national park on 5/7.

It is known and protected mountain lion habitat with mention at the gate and on the info sign. They even go as far as describe the area as "a refuge for mountain lions".

The trail is typically moderately busy, and i was hiking at 7pm with 1.5hrs of light left and only after the first releases that park restrictions were softening. Still there was a group approx once per 15min, so far from deserted, but much lighter traffic then this park area typically gets.

The mountain lions are extremely stealthy and avoid humans even compared to bobcats, coyotes etc, but it is not like bigfoot or nessie. They are there. I've talked to some rangers /park staff and none have seen a lion even after spotting most of the other wildlife.

In this case one major reason the lion was in the area was less humans on that trail for while. The reason it was even seen though follows, and probably will start to sound familiar and true to many humans. I spotted the lion around the bend standing in the middle of the road crossimg beteen the infrequent human groups. The actual distance was approx 100ft away and at max distance (the pics are zoomed and cropped).
The reason for the freezeup: There was also a juvenile lion, who was playing peekaboo under the rail. I am sure parents can relate when Junior is goofing off making them late or in this case getting them spotted.

20200507_190233.jpg

The lion behavior now makes sense as mom is not going to ditch the kid, so we were at a standoff for several minutes Meanwhile, mom was staring down everyone making sure nobody tries anything, just as the humans were doing the same to her and waving our arms and trying to look big and goofy, but in this case, non-effective. Junior finally gets his act together and got on the road and crossed non-chalantly.
20200507_190716.jpg

After my notification to authorities, the pair was also spotted by other hikers the following morning. By that next day though, staff posted additional flyers and info at the trailheads. Both in the adjacent county parks(by county park) and at this trailhead by nps ranger who has jurisdiction. I hope people follow them. There haven't been any additonal postings of sights, and the increased human usage (as parks openings and go outside instructions relaxed a bit) probably drove them to quieter parts of their territory.


The details for lion education and behavior are best left to the experts and other websites who have wrote it up better than I can restate.
For the bay area here is a decent resource for education with a map tracking of sightings. It maybe a little dated and overlapping years of sightings; and most are via trail cams as they are most active dusk/dawn. But you can see the mountain lions area includes up and down all the peninsula open space.
http://www.bapp.org/


If you really want to deep dive into it, the bapp sponsoring lion conservation nonprofit felidaefund.org has been holding education series like every couple weeks on various wildlife cat topics (now web based). Some related to Bay Area research projects (recorded).
felidaefund.org

Another lion conservation site has info and education targetting different levels; but includes an section going into state legal and management issues.
mountainlion.org

If you were interested in the wildlife management, CA Fish and Game also has a wildlife section with links to other programs and research (and on other animals). Note, our state has a PhD in wildlife ecology staffed in charge of lion research as well other researchers in the dept, so I feel confident there are at least dedicated scientists who spend their careers thinking about this, are in place to guide the wildlife management and policy and not Karen or John on fb who know how to handle the situation; their credentials being they were born in Montana.
 

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skibob

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Thanks @raytseng . I know where you are talking about, although I've never hiked there.

Here in Santa Rosa we've had a larger variety of all kinds of wildlife since the fires in 2017, although its always been shared with a lot of animals, big and small. Those areas that burned are starting to grow back their brush and cover, but I haven't seen signs of wildlife moving out. ANd the recent decreased human activity may also encourage. Last year we had a lion in downtown Santa Rosa at the mall downtown. No kidding. Fortunately it was spotted around 3:30 am and F&W were able to tranquilize and relocate it immediately.

There is also a large old cemetery (most recent graves from 1920s) in the center of town. Its many acres and heavily wooded. North of that there is an uninhabited and mostly human free ridge line. Beyond that a widely spaced tract of older homes. And beyond that is where I live. A lion was spotted in the cemetery just a few weeks ago and they travel that corridor through my area. I am certain, based on my dog's reaction that we've been watched by something she fears--at least bobcat or larger--on multiple occasions. I trust her instincts. If she doesn't want to go that way, we don't!

The first example is something that can't be managed. If the lion had been left alone it would have been hit by a car or worse, harassed until it had to protect itself. The second example is just really the sort of thing where you have to be aware that you share the land with wildlife. You have to be aware of your own safety and their's.

Surprisingly, I don't know of any Coyote sightings around here.
 
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raytseng

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Agree, the sighting in their habitat vs in an urban area are different situations with different responses. If you spot one in known established habitat you could keep that lucky memory just to yourself (or share it just with researchers). if you spot one in human area it probably is your good citizen duty to call it in to the police or other authorities.

Each mountain lion has large territories, but this fact isn't to support that the ave lion roams territory to encroach on humans.
There is only so much habitat and they will fight over it. The mountain lions that would venture into human space are more likely juvelines kicked out of the house and who can't find/win their own territory or the old/weak/sick/injured that have been displaced.
They got a housing issue just like rest of the bay area.
It does being up the euphemism of "catch and release" is likely killing a creature, either during the process, or in the destination territory that already has a lion, one of them has to go; but that's an issue for the wildlife managers who spent their careers working on this to handle as best as possible
 

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Back about 1980 I was on a multi-day trip in Olympic National Park. We were camped at the beach at Sand Point, which is a pretty popular hike-in place. Middle of the night, it's completely dark, I was asleep on my back with my hand on my chest, my wife was next to me on her side. Suddenly there came the loud cry of a cougar right next to the tent, like you heard in the old Disney nature flcks but only a couple of feet from my head. The bushes next to the tent rustled a bit, and then complete silence. I was frozen in place, didn't move a muscle, and my wife made no movement or sound. I wondered how she could have slept through it, but after about 5 minutes of complete silence except for the surf she said, "Did you hear that?

On another note, we had a yappy little dog across the street from us in our suburban neighborhood. It was a PITA. One day a mama deer and her fawn were in the neighbors' yard and the dog started in after the deer. Mama calmly stomped the dog to death. An heroic act.
 

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