tracking your CoM and your BoS

[LiquidFeet]

So let me get this straight....you focus first on the ski that will not be the doing the heavy lifting?....

Yes.

 

[Doug Briggs]

So let me get this straight....you focus first on the ski that will not be the doing the heavy lifting? Are you advocating hooking the inside ski? Any movement of the COM to the inside be it via pelvis, upper Mass or legs needs to be in support of the Centripetal force being generated by the outside ski.

I know many get initiation confidence by rolling their inside ankle into the new turn but it has the potential of inhibiting the proper loading of the outside ski. It is only post fall line/Apex when the inside ski engages in a meaningful way and helps complete the turn while at the same time provides a BOS for moving into the next turn. Ref the get over it drill.

I'll second what Hannibal and @LiquidFeet recommend. It works.

I use it with my athletes all the time when they are letting their inside ski drag or skid. They are typically leaning in, as well, despite the skidding inside ski. In speed, this is particularly dangerous and ineffective. You'll (likely) be amazed.

 

[rustypouch]

So let me get this straight....you focus first on the ski that will not be the doing the heavy lifting? Are you advocating hooking the inside ski? Any movement of the COM to the inside be it via pelvis, upper Mass or legs needs to be in support of the Centripetal force being generated by the outside ski.

I know many get initiation confidence by rolling their inside ankle into the new turn but it has the potential of inhibiting the proper loading of the outside ski. It is only post fall line/Apex when the inside ski engages in a meaningful way and helps complete the turn while at the same time provides a BOS for moving into the next turn. Ref the get over it drill.

Makes sense. In a way it seems like lightening the new inside ski, transferring weight to the new outside ski.

As for when in the turn to do it, CSIA methodology is to get on the new outside ski as high in the turn as possible. You won't get beyond level 2 if you're engaging the outside ski at or below the apex of the turn.

 

[JESinstr]

I'll second what Hannibal and @LiquidFeet recommend. It works.

So does sitting in the back seat for millions of skiers who are traveling down the same black diamond your are.

 

[markojp]

You can concurrently apply pressure to the forebody of the new inside ski AND get weight to the outside ski. Beans and cornbread! Magic stuff like Doug says.

 

[JESinstr]

You can concurrently apply pressure to the forebody of the new inside ski AND get weight to the outside ski. Beans and cornbread! Magic stuff like Doug says.

Absolutely. But that and other moves are options to be employed when an where you desire. Just by stating "AND get weight to the outside ski" you recognized (as you always have) the fundamental requirement. That's all I'm saying.

 

[KingGrump]

I didn’t find embedding new motor skills particularly harder at my advanced age.

It's the overwriting of the old patterns by the new that's difficult for me.
Color me jealous.

"Advanced" is all relative dependent upon one's perspective.

To a teenager, 21 is a life time away. To someone in their 60's, 21 was just yesterday.

 

[Chris V.]

The reason you see the tipping as being delayed is because first and foremost, the inside leg needs to soften then shorten.... Obviously in this drill the inside ski is intentionally lifted to assure complete focus on getting the COM over the outside ski BOS (see, I am in keeping with the theme of this thread!) and then a smooth and patient creation of angles.... Don't get me wrong, the inside leg plays a key role in directional guidance but it plays a more important role in promoting angulation aka higher edge angles by the outside ski.

I've excised a couple of phrases from your comments, to address separately. I agree with all you've said as edited above. The oral description of the drill explains an objective of developing the ability to balance on the little toe edge of the new outside ski, before rolling onto the new edges. Very good skiers could continue indefinitely in a traverse on that little toe edge, or even continue turning into the hill, using only that edge.

"THEN matching the building edge angles of the outside ski. [C]reation of angles beginning with the rolling of the outside ski."

There's a large school of trainers and theorists who advocate just the opposite focus--FIRST tipping the new inside foot, and letting the outside foot follow as a natural consequence. I have had the privilege of being taught by some who emphasize this approach, and I have considered it to be very effective. This has nothing to do with trying to "hook" the skis. It's about creating edge angles, angulation, consistently parallel tracking, appropriate dorsiflexion, and general inside foot discipline.

If you think about it, it's very easy to fall into bad habits of A-framing. The body is quite comfortable in such a stance. This a very common problem among less-than-expert skiers, often associated with stemming and related maneuvers. On the other hand, it's physically quite difficult for most people to ski in a bowlegged stance. Hence, a focus on tipping the inside foot tends to remedy common problems, rather than give rise to them. Put another way, inside foot tipping seems to fire up a kinesthetic chain that leads to good skiing. Tipping the inside foot has a strong tendency to pull the outsde foot over at a matching angle.

Some advocates of the inside foot focus display a slight sequential motion, with the knees briefly moving apart slightly at transition. There may even be a small divergence of the ski tips. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it can lead into the vertical separation of the skis needed to facilitate radically high edge angles. With other skiers, the inside foot focus doesn't lead to a visible sequential motion.

While I suspect that, ahem, Bridget is using an inside foot movement to initiate tipping in the drill, I can't prove it. (I do think that she is being quite deliberate in the timing of when she starts tipping her feet.) No doubt many skiers reach performance at a very high level following a pathway of explicitly addressing mostly the outside ski. However, I can see that learning dominated by work on the inside foot would be very effective to create good motor skills for a great many students.

If you have novice skiers, while standing still, raise one boot off the snow, put it close to the other, and tip it, usually the first thing to happen will be that they will fall over. The next thing to happen (on the next attempt) wiil be that they start creating some angulation to counterbalance the forces this tipping creates. The mind and body are very good at adapting to such challenges.

In the context of the Get Over It drill, it's completely obvious that a deliberate tipping of the insude ski could not inhibit loading or engagement of the outside ski, because the inside ski is off the snow. The aforementioned school of thought also advocates being very light in the inside ski at initiation. You may see skiers with this focus--and you may see World Cup racers--on occasion raise the tail of the inside ski during initiation.

Razie's Web site effectiveskiing.com has lots of great information on this subject.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"Advanced" is all relative dependent upon one's perspective.
To a teenager, 21 is a life time away. To someone in their 60's, 21 was just yesterday.

Yes, but I'm jealous of 21 year olds even more.

 

[Dakine]

You can concurrently apply pressure to the forebody of the new inside ski AND get weight to the outside ski. Beans and cornbread! Magic stuff like Doug says.

Two legs can work independently and I agree that pressuring the forebody of the new ski while continuing to carve the old ski is the way.
However, this seems to contradict what Mike King has to say.
I don't see how you can pressure the forebody of the new ski without boot tongue pressure.
Likewise, why would any racer use Booster Straps if they weren't trying to get pressure on the front of the ski quickly?

Dakine said: ↑
Boot tongue pressure.
If I have it, things are good.
If I don't I have to figure out why and fix it.

Mike King said:
I’m more like if I can’t feel the front or back of the boot, I’m good.

 

[markojp]

These conversations always become binary and absolute when we know great skiing is anything but. Anyone skiing at the wc level can modulate pressure as necessary. Timing hasn't even been mentioned. There also appears to be confusion between 'pressure' and 'weight'.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...AND we have significant thread drift.

 

[JESinstr]

I've excised a couple of phrases from your comments, to address separately. I agree with all you've said as edited above. The oral description of the drill explains an objective of developing the ability to balance on the little toe edge of the new outside ski, before rolling onto the new edges. Very good skiers could continue indefinitely in a traverse on that little toe edge, or even continue turning into the hill, using only that edge.

"THEN matching the building edge angles of the outside ski. [C]reation of angles beginning with the rolling of the outside ski."

There's a large school of trainers and theorists who advocate just the opposite focus--FIRST tipping the new inside foot, and letting the outside foot follow as a natural consequence. I have had the privilege of being taught by some who emphasize this approach, and I have considered it to be very effective. This has nothing to do with trying to "hook" the skis. It's about creating edge angles, angulation, consistently parallel tracking, appropriate dorsiflexion, and general inside foot discipline.

If you think about it, it's very easy to fall into bad habits of A-framing. The body is quite comfortable in such a stance. This a very common problem among less-than-expert skiers, often associated with stemming and related maneuvers. On the other hand, it's physically quite difficult for most people to ski in a bowlegged stance. Hence, a focus on tipping the inside foot tends to remedy common problems, rather than give rise to them. Put another way, inside foot tipping seems to fire up a kinesthetic chain that leads to good skiing. Tipping the inside foot has a strong tendency to pull the outsde foot over at a matching angle.

Some advocates of the inside foot focus display a slight sequential motion, with the knees briefly moving apart slightly at transition. There may even be a small divergence of the ski tips. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it can lead into the vertical separation of the skis needed to facilitate radically high edge angles. With other skiers, the inside foot focus doesn't lead to a visible sequential motion.

While I suspect that, ahem, Bridget is using an inside foot movement to initiate tipping in the drill, I can't prove it. (I do think that she is being quite deliberate in the timing of when she starts tipping her feet.) No doubt many skiers reach performance at a very high level following a pathway of explicitly addressing mostly the outside ski. However, I can see that learning dominated by work on the inside foot would be very effective to create good motor skills for a great many students.

If you have novice skiers, while standing still, raise one boot off the snow, put it close to the other, and tip it, usually the first thing to happen will be that they will fall over. The next thing to happen (on the next attempt) wiil be that they start creating some angulation to counterbalance the forces this tipping creates. The mind and body are very good at adapting to such challenges.

In the context of the Get Over It drill, it's completely obvious that a deliberate tipping of the insude ski could not inhibit loading or engagement of the outside ski, because the inside ski is off the snow. The aforementioned school of thought also advocates being very light in the inside ski at initiation. You may see skiers with this focus--and you may see World Cup racers--on occasion raise the tail of the inside ski during initiation.

Razie's Web site effectiveskiing.com has lots of great information on this subject.

Chris, Thanks for taking the time to document all your points. Taken individually, I have no arguments with much of what you wrote.

An issue with forums (on any subject) is that sometimes we fail to provide proper context and more importantly, fail to identify the audience we are trying to communicate with. I suspect our interactions are a result of this phenomenon.

Most of the time, when I read a post, I ask the question: " What impact will this have on a self-taught intermediate or advanced, back seat (survivor) skier?" Many here promote advanced techniques with the assumption their audience has the proper knowledge and skill base to implement what they profess.

In my "twilight" years as teacher, I have turned my focus on the teaching of beginners. Key to this focus is finding common, fundamental threads that span the spectrum from beginner to expert. At the center of it all of course, is Balance. This is a word that is much maligned because many instructors think of it in terms of their skill level and not the students. Many think explaining a simple term like Base of Support is too complicated. Well the truth is that beginners come to their first lesson with everything but knowledge and experience in the BOS required for proper skiing. Most instructors will keep shouting "Hands in front" until something finally clicks instead of teaching what our skiing BOS is comprised of and how we use our flex complex (ankles, knees and hips) plus upper body management in a way that supports BOS consistency.

Another point. The sport of skiing involves the active intentional creation, building and management of Centripetal force. Unfortunately for most newbies and many intermediates, the creation of Centripetal force is unintentional and it happens when a sliding ski is placed on edge. Dealing with the unintentional introduction of Centripetal force can be problematic.

To many of your points, what you profess is perfectly acceptable provided the skier is in control and intentionally trying to create the centripetal state aka carving. This level of skier is free to implement multiple cross ski variations because they know where they are going and what they are doing.

Carving is a form of redirection but not all redirection is in the form of carving.

So to my main point and perspective. IMO, what you see in the "Get over it" vid is ground zero for how the outside ski needs to function end to end. In this scenario, the softening, shortening and tipping (to match) of the inside leg has one main purpose and that is to GET OUT OF THE WAY while promoting the building of edge angles on the outside ski. At Advanced skill levels you can implement all kinds of "Adders" to ski more effectively and adapt to various situations, but that is because you have the established balance skills to do so.

Again I believe strongly in teaching fundamentals that span all levels of skiing. And in that context, to teach (first move) inside ski tipping to beginners (who are operating primarily under the force of gravity) only serves to instill habits that the current skill level does not support and takes focus off building a ski based BOS, balancing on the inside edge of the outside ski which again is the key to utilizing the design of today's modern ski.

Regards,

 

[KingGrump]

Page 4, September, technical.instruction topic. Surprised.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I did ask about teaching in my OP. Most people have not said much about teaching, nor the level of the intended student for that teaching. Thanks, @JESinstr, for bringing up your perspective. And thank you for relating your comments directly to BoS issues.

I'm coming to see that most people here, no matter their experience level, don't attempt to feel their CoM, or if they do they don't do it consciously, or if they do they don't use the words I'm using, or they don't use words at all. I do. I use words, and I can feel its spatial presence.

I find where my CoM is by moving my BoS around beneath, and paying attention to what the balance effects are. I think about this often. When those balance effects are good, that means I just found the CoM. Yes, the CoM moves, and so do my feet, so everything is dynamic. Mostly I just "know" (sensation-wise) where the CoM is (a moving target, yes) at any given moment, maybe from practice thinking in these terms and maybe because I've been doing proprioceptive work on sensing my torso/CoM-feet/BoS relationship.

It's interesting to discover how others think about this issue of CoM to BoS.

 

[Dakine]

I did ask about teaching in my OP. Most people have not said much about teaching, nor the level of the intended student for that teaching. Thanks, @JESinstr, for bringing up your perspective. And thank you for relating your comments directly to BoS issues.

I'm coming to see that most people here, no matter their experience level, don't attempt to feel their CoM, or if they do they don't do it consciously, or if they do they don't use those words. I do. I can feel its spatial presence. I find where my CoM is by moving my BoS around beneath, and paying attention to what the balance effects are. I think about this often. When those balance effects are good, that means I just found the CoM. Yes, it moves, and so do my feet. Mostly I just "know" somehow where the CoM is, maybe from practice thinking in these terms and doing some proprioceptive work on my torse-foot relationship. I am in no way claiming I'm an especially good skier because of this conceptual focus. I'm discovering how significantly "different" my conceptual process is from most here.

Nothing like windsurfing to teach you about COM and BOS.....

 

[markojp]

I did ask about teaching in my OP. Most people have not said much about teaching, nor the level of the intended student for that teaching. Thanks, @JESinstr, for bringing up your perspective. And thank you for relating your comments directly to BoS issues.

I'm coming to see that most people here, no matter their experience level, don't attempt to feel their CoM, or if they do they don't do it consciously, or if they do they don't use the words I'm using, or they don't use words at all. I do. I use words, and I can feel its spatial presence.

I find where my CoM is by moving my BoS around beneath, and paying attention to what the balance effects are. I think about this often. When those balance effects are good, that means I just found the CoM. Yes, the CoM moves, and so do my feet, so everything is dynamic. Mostly I just "know" (sensation-wise) where the CoM is (a moving target, yes) at any given moment, maybe from practice thinking in these terms and maybe because I've been doing proprioceptive work on sensing my torso/CoM-feet/BoS relationship.

It's interesting to discover how others think about this issue of CoM to BoS.

Rather than CoM, I will certainly talk about 'getting your feet under you' which really IS all about BoS and CoM... feet are just easier for people to understand. You got'em, you stand on'em, and they're where great skiing starts

 

[Steve]

I think an overall awareness of your force-vector is a key component of great skiing. And that basically is your COM/BOS.

As @Doby Man said, "push the stick." Be aware of your force vector as if it's a joystick and push it forward.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"you" = CoM
"feet" = BoS

Is that a worthy substitute?
Can a simple change of words generate more YES responses to my OP?

 

[David Chaus]

"you" = CoM
"feet" = BoS

Is that a worthy substitute?
Can a simple change of words generate more YES responses to my OP?

Possibly.

But how much do you need to see a few more YES’s to your OP?