tracking your CoM and your BoS

[JESinstr]

Small point - the orange pant guy is attempting CSIA L3. Does not say he is L3.

Says L3 candidate, so fairly safe to assume it's a short radius turns - one of the 4 tasks required for CSIA L3. Typically done on a groomed, black run. (I hazard a guess the L4 would score well with that run.)

Interested in what drill or task you'd recommend if you had only 1 hour to improve the candidate's short turns. (In other words you're being assessed for CSIA L3 Teach.) Likely to have 2 or 3 other candidates with their own individual problems so unlikely to be able to do more than one main task or 2 simple ones.

Thanks for the info/update on CSIA

When I look at the level 4 what strikes me first is alignment. He is looking where he is going and his body aligns accordingly unlike the L3 candidate who is countering his upper body and uses inclination vs angulation which supports his heel pushes. Another issue is how the L4 initiates with an intentional softening then early shortening of the inside leg.

If I only have an hour...actually even if I had forever, I would start with the pole drag drill on mild terrain. In short radius turns and If done correctly, this drill will force the upper body to maintain alignment with direction of travel. With the upper body being managed by the dragging poles, he can focus on full leg rotation and how he needs to adjust his BOS to make this happen. As in all drills terrain choice is key. Slope should be relatively mild in order for patience to play a key role.

Next, I would focus on the intentional and active shortening of the inside leg to develop the edge angles via angulation vs inclination.

In the end, a good test for success would be to execute the rotary/carve wedge that JF demos in his vid.

 

[geepers]

Thanks for the info/update on CSIA

When I look at the level 4 what strikes me first is alignment. He is looking where he is going and his body aligns accordingly unlike the L3 candidate who is countering his upper body and uses inclination vs angulation which supports his heel pushes. Another issue is how the L4 initiates with an intentional softening then early shortening of the inside leg.

If I only have an hour...actually even if I had forever, I would start with the pole drag drill on mild terrain. In short radius turns and If done correctly, this drill will force the upper body to maintain alignment with direction of travel. With the upper body being managed by the dragging poles, he can focus on full leg rotation and how he needs to adjust his BOS to make this happen. As in all drills terrain choice is key. Slope should be relatively mild in order for patience to play a key role.

Next, I would focus on the intentional and active shortening of the inside leg to develop the edge angles via angulation vs inclination.

In the end, a good test for success would be to execute the rotary/carve wedge that JF demos in his vid.

I wondered if the basic issue here was that his fore-aft needed work. When the ski engages the L4 gets grip along the length of the ski. Seems to me the candidate is forward hence loses grip with the tails. This results in little rebound - mostly the pole vault effect - so he has to do all the hard work of trying to get himself across the hill. Which he attempts to achieve with a self-powered vertical movement and so has low ski engagement with the snow at the start of his next turn.

In contrast to the L4 who is correctly balanced, gets plenty of grip and manages the abundant rebound that propels him across the hill by flexing into the next turn.

 

[Rod9301]

Thanks for the info/update on CSIA

When I look at the level 4 what strikes me first is alignment. He is looking where he is going and his body aligns accordingly unlike the L3 candidate who is countering his upper body and uses inclination vs angulation which supports his heel pushes. Another issue is how the L4 initiates with an intentional softening then early shortening of the inside leg.

If I only have an hour...actually even if I had forever, I would start with the pole drag drill on mild terrain. In short radius turns and If done correctly, this drill will force the upper body to maintain alignment with direction of travel. With the upper body being managed by the dragging poles, he can focus on full leg rotation and how he needs to adjust his BOS to make this happen. As in all drills terrain choice is key. Slope should be relatively mild in order for patience to play a key role.

Next, I would focus on the intentional and active shortening of the inside leg to develop the edge angles via angulation vs inclination.

In the end, a good test for success would be to execute the rotary/carve wedge that JF demos in his vid.

Are you saying that it's not desirable to have the upper body face the downhill ski, but to face the direction of travel?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I wondered if the basic issue here was that his fore-aft needed work. When the ski engages the L4 gets grip along the length of the ski. Seems to me the candidate is forward hence loses grip with the tails......

The candidate is rotating his skis from the tips, a big no-no.

Note the trees immediately above the candidate's left hand and elbow. In this sequence, that hand does not move down the hill, and it hardly moves to the candidate's left. His body is not moving much.

But his ski tails certainly are.

His ski tips stay in the same spot as the tails move out and his body drops and inclines. To confirm the tips not moving, find the tree above the inside ski tip in the first frame and notice that the tip doesn't move laterally relative to the tree by the last frame.

Rotating skis from the tips can be done while aft or too far forward ... or while light and centered. Since we don't see the candidate from the side, can we determine which is the case?

It's the quick rotation from the tips that is his major offense. He does this with femur rotation, using active femur rotation. To confirm, notice that his hips do not rotate as his knees move to his right.

The results of this habitual movement pattern deplete his potential for getting maximum ski performance, for all the reasons noted by people posting here.

 

[JESinstr]

Are you saying that it's not desirable to have the upper body face the downhill ski, but to face the direction of travel?

Fundamentally yes. Not to be snarky, but don't you want to be facing where your com is being directed?

To understand this better, I think it would be good to have a quick discussion around the topic of "turning" in the context of redirection...another one of those elephants in the room. More specifically, redirectional force...ie what force is causing the ski to redirect. If you are carving, the redirectional force (Centripetal) is generated at the edge/surface interface. Therefore your movement patterns need to focus on creating and maintaining the carving state ergo, the skis are turning you. Facing the outside ski is not on the list of things we do to carve. If you are pivoting the skis, then the rotational re-directional force is generated from the leg and there are many "Advanced" skiers out there that do not know how to properly accomplish this. The L3 Candidate is among this group IMO.

What I net out from Gellie's analysis as well as @Chris V. 's is that the level 4 begins with Rotary redirection (through the arch) high up in the turn and quickly transitions into redirection via Centripetal (Carving) force. Whereas, Mr. Orange Pants begins with Rotary redirection based on heel push and keeps that focus to his hard landing. Although you see the skis begin to carve, it is because he is moving forward and his skis get on edge through improper movement patterns. In the end, his start to finish focus is getting to that velocity limiting "hard landing", checking action, compression and blockage on each and every turn.

 

[Rod9301]

Fundamentally yes. Not to be snarky, but don't you want to be facing where your com is being directed?

To understand this better, I think it would be good to have a quick discussion around the topic of "turning" in the context of redirection...another one of those elephants in the room. More specifically, redirectional force...ie what force is causing the ski to redirect. If you are carving, the redirectional force (Centripetal) is generated at the edge/surface interface. Therefore your movement patterns need to focus on creating and maintaining the carving state ergo, the skis are turning you. Facing the outside ski is not on the list of things we do to carve. If you are pivoting the skis, then the rotational re-directional force is generated from the leg and there are many "Advanced" skiers out there that do not know how to properly accomplish this. The L3 Candidate is among this group IMO.

What I net out from Gellie's analysis as well as @Chris V. 's is that the level 4 begins with Rotary redirection (through the arch) high up in the turn and quickly transitions into redirection via Centripetal (Carving) force. Whereas, Mr. Orange Pants begins with Rotary redirection based on heel push and keeps that focus to his hard landing. Although you see the skis begin to carve, it is because he is moving forward and his skis get on edge through improper movement patterns. In the end, his start to finish focus is getting to that velocity limiting "hard landing", checking action, compression and blockage on each and every turn.

So then why all racers counteract?

 

[Chris V.]

So then why all racers counteract?

Yes, JESinstr, we'd appreciate a more detailed explanation. I think I know in a general way what you mean, but would like confirmation in your words and maybe get a deeper understanding.

 

[geepers]

The candidate is rotating his skis from the tips, a big no-no.

Note the trees immediately above the candidate's left hand and elbow. In this sequence, that hand does not move down the hill, and it hardly moves to the candidate's left. His body is not moving much.

But his ski tails certainly are.

His ski tips stay in the same spot as the tails move out and his body drops and inclines. To confirm the tips not moving, find the tree above the inside ski tip in the first frame and notice that the tip doesn't move laterally relative to the tree by the last frame.

Rotating skis from the tips can be done while aft or too far forward ... or while light and centered. Since we don't see the candidate from the side, can we determine which is the case?

It's the quick rotation from the tips that is his major offense. He does this with femur rotation, using active femur rotation. To confirm, notice that his hips do not rotate as his knees move to his right.

The results of this habitual movement pattern deplete his potential for getting maximum ski performance, for all the reasons noted by people posting here.
View attachment 81850

We do get to see him from the side. Looks forward to me, overflexed at the waist and with outside foot getting behind.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@geepers I did miss that.
Here are two screenshots from that gif.
Here's a sequence.

He's not too far forward here.


But here he's overly flexed at the hips - and too
far forward. He's opening his knees, which makes
his thighs more vertical and moves his hips forward,
and it looks like he is also bending down even
more at the hips, moving his shoulders forward,
probably in an attempt to "get forward" to initiate
the turn.


He's now angulated at the hips, with feet way out,
and appears still overly flexed at the hips. So yes,
as you said, he's too far forward while rotating the
skis. That, along with his speedy pivot, probably
results in the pivot point being at the tips.

 

[JESinstr]

So then why all racers counteract?

Didn't know we were talking racing. We were discussing a L4 CSIA conducting short radius parallel turns vs a skier in orange pants pushing his heels to try and accomplish the same thing.

Can you provide me with pics or vids on what you mean by counteract? Then maybe I can respond.

Thanks!

 

[Rod9301]

Harb had a lot of videos on this .

 

[JESinstr]

Harb had a lot of videos on this .

Thanks for answering my question! LOL

 

[Rod9301]

Thanks for answering my question! LOL

That's what Google is for

 

[JESinstr]

That's what Google is for

You're serious right?

 

[geepers]

One of the PMTS folk can chime in if my understanding is not right...

They have terms like counter-balancing and counter-acting. Some other systems may know these as angulation and separation?

A little more on counter-acting...
Developing counter-acting while skiing. What is Austrian Counter?
The video imbedded in the article shows some funky upper body work.

I kind of prefer the concept expressed here:
(Shaxted is a CSIA L4 and a member of the Irish Demo Team at Interski.)

P.S. Apologies to all the flex-to-release folk who may feel a little disoriented by all the up down motion. The take-away is intended to be where-the-body-is-facing.

 

[HardDaysNight]

It’s interesting to see how the theme of the moment waxes and wanes in ski instruction circles. Currently counter is out of favour, dismissed by people who don’t understand why it ever existed in the first place and what function it serves in the turns of top racers who use it pervasively. Can anyone suggest what that might be? I mean just for the sake of intellectual curiosity.

 

[geepers]

It’s interesting to see how the theme of the moment waxes and wanes in ski instruction circles. Currently counter is out of favour, dismissed by people who don’t understand why it ever existed in the first place and what function it serves in the turns of top racers who use it pervasively. Can anyone suggest what that might be? I mean just for the sake of intellectual curiosity.

Something-something-stacked?

More a tentative "is it to do with the speeds and forces of non-comp skiers who don't have to get around gates" than a definitive answer (which is over my pay grade).

Ski Technique 101 – Turning with the Lower Body

How much separation do I need?
This is a question I receive often. The answer is dependent upon a number of factors including the equipment you are using, the snow conditions, the speed of travel, ski performance etc, however the biggest factor is the size of turn you want to achieve. If you turn the legs only a small amount, you will create a long turn. If you want to make a shorter turn you will need to create a much bigger steering angle. This means the skis are turning much more against the direction of travel resulting in a lot more separation of the upper body.
​

ANGULATION or INCLINATION??...What's the point?

The point I am really making here is that the amount of angulation needed is very small if the skier has inclined the appropriate amount relative to their speed and the pitch of the hill. The spine is not vertical, it is still inclined. Anymore angle than this and the skier would be over angulated creating as many, and potentially more sever problems than being too inclined.
The position in “Diagram 3” is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort. The interesting thing is that most people would say that this is a good position.
​

 

[JESinstr]

I kind of prefer the concept expressed here:
(Shaxted is a CSIA L4 and a member of the Irish Demo Team at Interski.

Hey Geepers, I like this video too but I'm having trouble with his inference that in short radius turns you are facing down the hill but in larger radius turns you are facing direction of travel. Reality is, you are facing direction of travel no matter what the radius. It's just that in short radius turns there is minimal redirection so "down the hill" IS the direction you are traveling.

Good skier BTW.

 

[Chris V.]

What in the Harbian world is called counter-action, others would call upper-lower body separation. As far as I can see, the only difference is that Harb advocates a different mental picture or learning pathway--an intent to turn the upper body relative to the base of the skis, as opposed to "turning the skis under a quiet upper body." He is definitely not talking about an old-fashioned counter-rotation at initiation. In fact, his materials frrquently caution against suddenly letting go of the counter-action you've developed in the previous turn. But it IS my impression that Harb advocates more separation in medium radius turns than do some others.

 

[JESinstr]

We do get to see him from the side. Looks forward to me, overflexed at the waist and with outside foot getting behind.

Just going back to my mantra that we should be focusing our teaching on common threads that span the beginner to the expert and a key one is teaching rotation through/around the arch. IMO for most, the natural/default rotary movement pattern is a pushing of the heels vs arch centered rotation. That is so clearly obvious in the above.

And the sad reality is that getting Mr. Orange Pants to undo that very ingrained movement pattern is harder than taking the time to teach it properly at the entry level.