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Too Stiff vs. Counterproductive Movement

KingGrump

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Never seen a Star Wars movie. I quit going to theaters when they started allowing cheering, shouting, talking, etc. bad behavior. Maybe 25 years ago.

The first Star War movie came out in 1977. That makes it 42 years ago.
I know, getting old went a lot quicker than we realized. I clearly remember seeing it with my girlfriend (Not my wife). Just like yesterday.
 

KingGrump

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Didn't know my wife then.
 
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Paul Shifflet

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I've entered the twilight zone (what's that?) where Star Wars never existed, jokes are taken literally, and no one ever cares what other people think of their skiing. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of a man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination.
 

Nancy Hummel

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It takes time. Many people ski one or two weeks a year. People have to think about new movements which can result in a “stiff” appearance. As the movements become habit, this allows for more subtle movements and more flow.
 

JESinstr

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This is where a good coach comes into play as @Seldomski mentions above. Whether it’s bumps or some other kind of terrain use, the idea is to get the static/stiff skier bending & unbending. Using small rollers or other terrain park features can also aid in getting the D.I.R.T. dialed & help eliminate any extraneous movements.
View attachment 79614

Fundamental to what you stated is the observation that the skier going over rollers has a reliable and ingrained BOS through the arch and is capable of maintaining a flexible relationship with his COM pretty much at will as evidenced by all the arm waving prior to the jump and a solid landing down through the arches. To some, they may MA him as a novice because of the arm movement but I submit he has solid set of proper balance skills from which to move forward.
 

4ster

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Fundamental to what you stated is the observation that the skier going over rollers has a reliable and ingrained BOS through the arch and is capable of maintaining a flexible relationship with his COM pretty much at will as evidenced by all the arm waving prior to the jump and a solid landing down through the arches. To some, they may MA him as a novice because of the arm movement but I submit he has solid set of proper balance skills from which to move forward.
Yeah, doesn’t look too stiff or static either.
Sometimes a little exaggerated movement is required in order to learn to tone it down without stiffening up.
900E1481-9DDB-4A57-96E5-17A471DFB85C.jpeg
 
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Henry

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I was skiing with a woman who had the too-many-lessons/not-enough-skiing syndrome. She asked for suggestions.

I had her drill with the double pole drag. Both poles pressed hard down into the snow out to the sides, never allow a pole tip to lift off the snow. This got her reacting to the pitch of the slope. I added counter to the double pole drag where by the end of the turn she was double-dragging with the inside pole tip ending up near her inside ski tip and the outside pole tip near her outside ski tail. A couple of runs like this, then just ski. She was skiing the hill instead of skiing the formula. Her skis were on edge doing the work for her. She was in balance. She had a big grin. She bought me a beer.
 

Nancy Hummel

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I was skiing with a woman who had the too-many-lessons/not-enough-skiing syndrome. She asked for suggestions.

I had her drill with the double pole drag. Both poles pressed hard down into the snow out to the sides, never allow a pole tip to lift off the snow. This got her reacting to the pitch of the slope. I added counter to the double pole drag where by the end of the turn she was double-dragging with the inside pole tip ending up near her inside ski tip and the outside pole tip near her outside ski tail. A couple of runs like this, then just ski. She was skiing the hill instead of skiing the formula. Her skis were on edge doing the work for her. She was in balance. She had a big grin. She bought me a beer.

Double pole drags do great things for many people without them having to think too much. It is also something they can do when skiing alone.

I skied with an instructor at Breck -level 6 or so lessons who would make people do all sorts of goofy things - ski like a gorilla, pretend you are John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever-etc. It was great because people quit focusing on trying to ski perfectly and we actually moved. It is all about the right thing at the right time.
 

JESinstr

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I was skiing with a woman who had the too-many-lessons/not-enough-skiing syndrome. She asked for suggestions.

I had her drill with the double pole drag. Both poles pressed hard down into the snow out to the sides, never allow a pole tip to lift off the snow. This got her reacting to the pitch of the slope. I added counter to the double pole drag where by the end of the turn she was double-dragging with the inside pole tip ending up near her inside ski tip and the outside pole tip near her outside ski tail. A couple of runs like this, then just ski. She was skiing the hill instead of skiing the formula. Her skis were on edge doing the work for her. She was in balance. She had a big grin. She bought me a beer.

If only you wouldn't have written that sentence about counter I would have bought in hook, line and sinker plus given you a million "likes" !
You aren't advocating active rotation (counter) of the upper body are you? We don't counter, counter happens. As you rightly stated, the disciplined of dragging of the poles will promote proper stance/balance leading to a countered state but from the bottom up not the top down.

May have misunderstood and if so, my apologies.
 

Henry

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According to law...all forces between two objects exist in equal magnitude and opposite direction. Newton's Third Law of Motion. If a twist is applied the (lighter mass) feet turn some one way and the (higher mass) body turns less the other way. Except--if the skis are engaged in the snow, they can't turn. Then the body does the turning. In any case, there needs to be a way to loosen up the body's ability for rotary (counter-rotary?) motion whether it is the skis under a stable body or a combination of ingredients.

JK, sometime try intentionally countering as far as your joints let you from the earliest beginning of a turn all the way until a moment after the release. Twist from the hips up. Don't let the inside foot go forward, keep it as far back as you can. You'll like the result. I know, not by the book...but it works well.
 

ToddW

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We don't counter, counter happens.

JESinstr,

So we’ve established that you don’t counter. But Hirscher did and Shiffrin does. The skiing greats of every generation do. Ski your way and have a great time doing so. But don’t flame others for doing something the greatest skiers of all time have done.
 

JESinstr

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Counter definitely does happen! My point is that it is driven from the bottom up by the need to create angulation. Your pelvis counters, and waist bends to facilitate increased angulation as dictated by the need for increased edge angle. If you don't allow for countering, your ability to obtain sufficient edge angles will be hindered.

@Henry set the alarms off when he wrote :
"I added counter to the double pole drag where by the end of the turn she was double-dragging with the inside pole tip ending up near her inside ski tip and the outside pole tip near her outside ski tail." That indicated to me a preemptive twisting of the upper body but again I might have misunderstood what he was saying.

The beauty of the pole drag drill is that it will encourage the pelvis to counter and waist to bend in order to keep BOTH pole tips dug in which is a critical requirement of this drill.

I think you will find that the upper body of all great skiers generally faces the direction of travel while the lower parts provide for angulation and redirection.
 

JKinBC-NC

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According to law...all forces between two objects exist in equal magnitude and opposite direction. Newton's Third Law of Motion. If a twist is applied the (lighter mass) feet turn some one way and the (higher mass) body turns less the other way. Except--if the skis are engaged in the snow, they can't turn. Then the body does the turning. In any case, there needs to be a way to loosen up the body's ability for rotary (counter-rotary?) motion whether it is the skis under a stable body or a combination of ingredients.

JK, sometime try intentionally countering as far as your joints let you from the earliest beginning of a turn all the way until a moment after the release. Twist from the hips up. Don't let the inside foot go forward, keep it as far back as you can. You'll like the result. I know, not by the book...but it works well.

Since you don't know me, I should let you know that you are sort of preaching to the choir. I already know that I like the results of intentional counter movements, that include the pelvis, that I use. I also already know that I like the benefits of pulling the inside foot back. It sounds like you and I are close to being on the same page of the book with respect to skiing movements.

Counter definitely does happen! My point is that it is driven from the bottom up by the need to create angulation. Your pelvis counters, and waist bends to facilitate increased angulation as dictated by the need for increased edge angle. If you don't allow for countering, your ability to obtain sufficient edge angles will be hindered.

If we don't actively create counter, it won't happen. Just "allowing" counter, doesn't result in counter. It takes active countering movements for counter to occur. Without active muscular engagement, the body seeks positions of lesser tension, so in order to create counter and to hold our counter until after we've released our edges, we must actively recruit the correct muscles and simultaneously relax the correct muscles that would otherwise oppose the movement caused by the engaged muscles. Counter doesn't happen by just allowing it to happen.

The appearance of a stable upper body is a result of very active countering movements, not by a lack of action that seems to be implied by:
We don't counter, counter happens.
 
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JESinstr

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Since you don't know me, I should let you know that you are sort of preaching to the choir. I already know that I like the results of intentional counter movements, that include the pelvis, that I use. I also already know that I like the benefits of pulling the inside foot back. It sounds like you and I are close to being on the same page of the book with respect to skiing movements.



If we don't actively create counter, it won't happen. Just "allowing" counter, doesn't result in counter. It takes active countering movements for counter to occur. Without active muscular engagement, the body seeks positions of lesser tension, so in order to create counter and to hold our counter until after we've released our edges, we must actively recruit the correct muscles and simultaneously relax the correct muscles that would otherwise oppose the movement caused by the engaged muscles. Counter doesn't happen by just allowing it to happen.

The appearance of a stable upper body is a result of very active countering movements, not by a lack of action that seems to be implied by:

The appearance of a stable upper body is a result of separation skills. Countering deals with the building of angles. But fair enough and can understand your perspective.

If you are coming straight down the zipper line doing short radius turns, are you tell us that your focus is on countering vs stance, foot/leg rotary and angulation?

I think the term "Counter" is used and misused a lot in skiing. What part of the anatomy are you referring to when you use the word "Counter"? If I am doing check turns and rotate my upper body in an anticipatory move is that a counter? If I am trying to carve a turn and consciously rotate my upper body down the hill, what effect does that have on the inside foot? I agree that the inside foot should be kept underneath but why? Because then you can bend at the waist and support the counter of the pelvis. But if you intentionally and independently counter your upper body, the inside foot will be inclined to slip out forward and bending at the waist is now harder to accomplish.

I MA my clients to see if counter is taking place and if not, I focus on addressing the things like stance, angulation and inclination that make counter happen.

Again, just a different perspective.
 

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