Tom Gellies' Bump Lesson Speed Control and Line Control video is Outstanding!

[Tony S]

More rants on this thread or board won't change anyone's opinion.

I don't think you read my post. It wasn't a rant. My post was basically saying that easter ners can't outwait the bad bumps, not that you guys never have them.

But yes, pictures (with sound!) are good. I will keep my eye out next year.

 

[geepers]

One of the reason Bob A. can ski a more direct line, he can control his speed by using the front of the ski and the upcoming face of the bump. In the competition-centric approach, this is one of the main emphasis. Skiing a direct line does take some amount of athleticism for quick timing and managing your absorption range but that athleticism does not have to be competition elite level. IMO, just focusing on the turns alone effectively limits another method to control speed.

In a presentation at Rookies (and not behind a paywall) Tom Gellie makes a point about the way comp mogul skiers use the tips of their skis as a type 2 lever - ie a wheelbarrow.

This skier is an example. Can best see he drives tips into the oncoming bump in the side-on view.

Relevant part of the presentation is here.

Fortunately Tom Gellie's teaching vids don't require it be be done at quite so demanding a level as gif-bumper above.

As a method of speed control tip-strike surely has limitations? As the pitch steepens other methods - skidding and/or line with the skis coming across the fall line become a necessary supplement. Here's Matt Graham winning at Calgary in 2017. Calgary is one of the steepest course on the WC.

Britteny Cox winning the Ladies, same event.

That's a not saying the tip method doesn't have a place - just that on steep runs it's probably not enough.

Interestingly I skied some course with a mid 20s instructor who was a very handy bump skier. Turns out she used to compete in bump skiing in Australia with people like Britt Cox. I asked if she would WC direct line the blacks/dbl blacks at our resort which often contain some mean bumps. "F... no! That would be a painful way to die."

Felt slightly less inadequate hearing that.

Just another aspect to athletism. It's not necessarily the moving bit that is the limitation. Don't mind admitting that as I've grown up I've become more candy a$$. Abruptly dissipating energy can hurt. Kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared. Mass is not easily changed but a 20% slower speed reduces kinetic energy by 30%.

Bob Barnes - Ski as fast as you are willing to fall... but no faster!

 

[Mike King]

One of the reason Bob A. can ski a more direct line, he can control his speed by using the front of the ski and the upcoming face of the bump. In the competition-centric approach, this is one of the main emphasis. Skiing a direct line does take some amount of athleticism for quick timing and managing your absorption range but that athleticism does not have to be competition elite level. IMO, just focusing on the turns alone effectively limits another method to control speed.

@jack97, Bobby May control the front of the ski, but nowhere close to what Tom Gellie advocates and achieves. The difference? Tom is tipping the ski much earlier and to a much greater edge. Watching Tom’s videos have me an understanding, I think, of what you’ve been advocating for years.

 

[Mike King]

Just read the thread.

Tim and others have convinced me that the Gellie videos are great, and maybe even worth the $50 (for one month).

I have no trouble agreeing that good bump skiing and instruction demonstrated on well-formed bumps in nice snow is useful, and largely transferable to less ideal conditions, as far as it goes.

That said, I am totally picking up what people like @LiquidFeet are laying down here with regard to the Northeast. The issue is not with Gellie any more than with any of the other superb models out there who understandably - ahem - choose to film their stuff in western N.A. but more with some of the reactions from the peanut gallery here. So yes, it's thread drift. Sue me.

Several of you, including @Mike King and @SSSdave have made comments to the effect of "Well, we get bad conditions in the bumps here, too. You've just got to be smart enough not to go out on those days, or wait 'til the sun comes out and softens things." Now to me this just proves our point, which is that sometimes you guys just don't get it. We often have conditions like that that go on for weeks without cease. I've got news for you: The sun coming out in Maine means NOTHING until April. If it means anything, it means it's going to be extra cold and frozen, because that's the weather we get in the winter under clear skis. Clouds and storms are what bring warmth here. Whether they bring rain or snow just depends on the cruel Gods. Moreover, our traffic per acre of bumps is far, far higher than at big western areas with bowls and wide trails and sparse trees. So if we're going to ski bumps here at all we're going to ski crappy bumps a lot of the time. Skiing crappy bumps is MUCH HARDER than skiing nice bumps. So it's totally reasonable for us to wish that someone would demonstrate that skill once in a while.

I don’t think I suggested waiting until conditions softened, although that may be a strategy

 

[François Pugh]

Great bump skiers can take their instruction from many sources. As to WC bump skiing, aspiring bump skiers would do best not to get their instruction from a source where faster wins more points. Once you get the idea that you have to be going fast enough for your skis to work properly, but slow enough to be in complete control with a BIG safety margin, things get easier. Once you have a few basics in mind, your first priority should be to be able to go as slow as possible on any slope with bumps. Then you are ready to start learning.
If you are willing to pay 50 bucks to watch instructional video, the OP's suggested videos seem to be a prime choice, judging from what can be gleaned from this thread.

 

[Tony S]

aspiring bump skiers would do best not to get their instruction from a source where faster wins more points

Quoted for truth.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....your first priority should be to be able to go as slow as possible on any slope with bumps. Then you are ready to start learning.....

QFT. Find three ways to slow down. Practice repeatedly. Stop when you speed up. Push reset button. Go again. How slow can you go without stopping? Slower, slower, slower.

 

[mike_m]

Tom has obviously been a source of great information for those posting here in the Instruction forum. He also has a series of excellent exercises to build ski strength and endurance. Open the following and scroll down to the bottom for the exercises. He provides a preview, then you can buy the video demonstrating each exercise for $10. Well worth it!

Best!
Mike

https://www.functionalbody.com.au/videos

 

[jack97]

Great bump skiers can take their instruction from many sources. As to WC bump skiing, aspiring bump skiers would do best not to get their instruction from a source where faster wins more points. Once you get the idea that you have to be going fast enough for your skis to work properly, but slow enough to be in complete control with a BIG safety margin, things get easier. Once you have a few basics in mind, your first priority should be to be able to go as slow as possible on any slope with bumps. Then you are ready to start learning.
If you are willing to pay 50 bucks to watch instructional video, the OP's suggested videos seem to be a prime choice, judging from what can be gleaned from this thread.

Another misconception in bold. If one shadows a freestyle team for a day or take lessons from a former WC competitor it's not about speed, its about technique. Bob A. said it in one those posted vids in this thread, "it doesn't have to be fast, it just has to be good". Once you get the techniques honed in, then speed is organic, its grows.

 

[François Pugh]

Without a doubt, you can learn a lot from WC bump skiers. You still should learn to walk before you learn to run, with very few exceptions.

 

[geepers]

Another misconception in bold. If one shadows a freestyle team for a day or take lessons from a former WC competitor it's not about speed, its about technique. Bob A. said it in one those posted vids in this thread, "it doesn't have to be fast, it just has to be good". Once you get the techniques honed in, then speed is organic, its grows.

Yes. As the Step 1 footage here shows (roughly the next 30 seconds from point it is cued). Basically this approach allows the skier to go as slow as they feel comfortable with although it does become pretty challenging on steeper pitches with irregular bumps where, at an elongated bump, the next flat spot may be a good way lower.


There is a fundamental difference between Tom Gellie approach and modern WC style in that the latter drops whatever vertical amount is dictated by the bump layout and the former advocates losing as little vertical as possible. If that means two turns per bump so be it.

The old time comp bump skiers (JLB, Chuck Martin, Carmichael) on the irregular bump fields were masters at an ultra quick left-right-left pivots on a top of a canoe shaped mogul. Seems the current crop can also do that (judging from the very few clips of them free skiing) but it's not a move they really need in current competition.

As an aside.... Was interesting to watch what may have been the last WC bump comp for 2019/20. The course was steep and snow conditions inconsistent. Of the 6 best WC bump skiers at the event in the final run the only one who could retain near perfect form was winner Kingsbury.

 

[Mike King]

Tom has obviously been a source of great information for those posting here in the Instruction forum. He also has a series of excellent exercises to build ski strength and endurance. Open the following and scroll down to the bottom for the exercises. He provides a preview, then you can buy the video demonstrating each exercise for $10. Well worth it!

Best!
Mike

https://www.functionalbody.com.au/videos

Mike, Tom had problems with the e-commerce aspects of that site, so all of his videos are now on the bigpictureskiing.com site.

Mike

 

[SSSdave]

Very brief clip. At 0:40>1:05 with Nelson Carmichael showing how he as a comp pro can make it look it look ridiculously slow and easy in large firm bumps.



What little takao yoyo'd often slowish much of this winter. Run starts out of view at tower 13 and many times I stopped at this spot.

 

[Mike King]

There is a fundamental difference between Tom Gellie approach and modern WC style in that the latter drops whatever vertical amount is dictated by the bump layout and the former advocates losing as little vertical as possible. If that means two turns per bump so be it.

@geepers, I see slightly differently. I don't think Tom is really advocating to minimize vertical travel whatever the cost, rather that if you have the technique to minimize vertical travel, you have more options than those who don't.

And the big takeaway for me, and the big difference between Tom's technique and Bobby's, is to look at the ski/snow contact. Tom has much more contact than Bobby, and he has it in whatever bumps he's skiing. It's impressive. And it is different technique. I've thought for years that the way to ski bumps was with a flat ski, but Tom is advocating huge edging. It gives you options and maintains ski/snow contact.

Mike

 

[geepers]

@Mike King - I noted that "minimise the vertical descent" as a key take-away. There's plenty of times I could sure do with that as the main option.

Re Bobby less snow contact.... wondered if that was his standard technique or that perhaps a loss of flexibility a couple of decades later. Not sure which of these is Bobby but it doesn't look like a huge focus on ski contact back then.

That said, current WC mogul skiers seem to aim for pretty good ski engagement. eg Type 2 lever gif I posted above. Frankly that's way too athletic for me so I'll go with Tom's approach.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Tail pivots galore! No Gellie tip edge pivot entry whatsoever.

 

[jack97]

Re Bobby less snow contact.... wondered if that was his standard technique or that perhaps a loss of flexibility a couple of decades later. Not sure which of these is Bobby but it doesn't look like a huge focus on ski contact back then.
[MEDIA=youtube]mKJBDzYfwjU[/MEDIA]


[/QUOTE]

The vid of Bob A winning that title was in 1988. Mogul competition still in the early stages but it sets the format that we see today. During that time, the techniques was really focused on deflection turns, the french team had members that dominated this type turn. Grospiron won the Olympic gold in 92. Sometimes, I wonder who would have won gold if Moguls was a competition event in 88. Four years later JLB used more snow contact to control his turns and was still able to get speed point. This eventually made the deflection turn a thing of the past as far as competition level.

BTW, there are dominate skiers with strong turn emphasis like Lahtela, Begg-Smith and Bilodeau that have further changed the mogul turn.

 

[jack97]

Re Bobby less snow contact.... wondered if that was his standard technique or that perhaps a loss of flexibility a couple of decades later. Not sure which of these is Bobby but it doesn't look like a huge focus on ski contact back then.

The vid of Bob A winning that title was in 1988. Mogul competition still in the early stages but it sets the format that we see today. During that time, the techniques was really focused on deflection turns, the french team had members that dominated this type turn. Grospiron won the Olympic gold in 92. Sometimes, I wonder who would have won gold if Moguls was a competition event in 88. Four years later JLB used more snow contact to control his turns and was still able to get speed point. This eventually made the deflection turn a thing of the past as far as competition level.

BTW, there are dominate skiers with strong turn emphasis like Lahtela, Begg-Smith and Bilodeau that have further changed the mogul turn.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

"Deflection Turns" that is a good name for it.

 

[Brad J]

I skied a lot of bumps from late 70's to late 80's with 203-205 SL straight ski's , I never heard the term Defection turns. Things were changing quickly in the bump skiing world , but in my limited ability , conditions permitting I used the down hill bump, uphill side as the speed control. bump to bump. The long narrow ski gave a reasonable ride ( more suspension) . If I tried it today they would be wheeling me into the home. My opinion is that the shorter shaped ski changed bump skiing and its technique . Its a much tighter and quicker game now. I still look at the 4S's in the basement wondering if I could relive the feeling that I had back then.?????