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Jason Kurth

Putting on skis
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Jan 27, 2018
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207
I started with toko and that's what I've stuck with for general and race waxing. Swix seems to be popular and has some more product/temp ranges though and what most racers use. So am I missing out?

For toko race waxing I just use the colored HF iron in then jetstream bloc topcoat corked in. I notice other racers glide better than me on flats even with the right temp toko w/ top coat so I wonder if I'm missing something.

What's the general swix race wax routine?
 

Dakine

Far Out
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Dec 21, 2015
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Tip of the Mitt
I'm a Swix guy and I think they have evolved their wax system into something so complicated that only a World Cup tech is likely to get exceptional performance.
Too many grades, fluros, solid lubes, etc, etc.
The chance of an amateur hitting an exceptional combination is not very high.
Most of the time, after your base prep, base wax, HF wax, Cera powder and liquid topcoat choices, you will get a mediocre result.
If the snow is very wet your chances are better but, after spending plenty on all this stuff, I can report that my fastest pair of skis has never been waxed with anything but Holmenkol Red Betamix (hundreds of times).
Calling @Primoz......
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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Whitefish, MT
I think the 100's of times is the key thing. It's why I hate base grinds. It's important to have structure, but then you've got to wax repeatedly to recover the glide. My new skis are always worse gliders than my old skis until they themselves become my old skis.

And do you need the HF where you are? The profile location is not filled in so I can't tell.
 

BGreen

Out on the slopes
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Colorado
Nothing wrong with Toko. It’s good wax, just learn the system. Toko red is a good universal wax. I’m a little less sold on DLC. Swix is good too. They all are used at very high levels. I think Swix is a little harder to learn to use because of the tight temperature levels. Either learn to use a system or learn to mix and match. For example overlay dominator butter over swix lf7 mixed with LF dlc.
 
Thread Starter
TS
J

Jason Kurth

Putting on skis
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Posts
207
So for example last weekend it was like 34* out and snowing with lots of fresh snow. I went with toko yellow which should be good for that high temp range. My skis felt slow and sticky. Should I have went harder (red) since the snow was fresh? or something else wrong?
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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Whitefish, MT
You mean grabby in sun/shade areas? Or uniformly slow? When fresh snow falls on wet snow or spring corn is where I see it the worst. A good fresh structure and some fluoro is usually needed, but spring conditions are always tough. You'll have brutally scraping ice in the AM, removing your wax (so you tend to use a harder wax against that), then softening stuff throughout the day, where you want the softer wax and worry about structure due to the wetness. But all the wax is gone from the AM. I've changed skis trying to fight this midday, but with little success. The one thing I can recommend is making sure you have good structure the whole surface of the ski. Race courses you can wax for just the two runs down the course, it is tougher for all day.

I don't worry much about the brand, I worry about the formulation. HF? LF? Temp? Graphite? Etc. There's probably a wax in every line that will work. This forum has a massive Dominator fan base. I just use Race Wax for the most part, blending things, but with side trips to other brands.

I think your specific mountain and the conditions you face each day should determine your choices. You'll probably be waxing for what you had yesterday most of the time until you hit on the formula. Personally, I think there's a transitional period with spring snow that you really can't get right, it just finally graduates to snow that is easier to wax for. You'll think you got it right, but next year that right isn't right. What happens is the snow got more consistent and stopped transitioning.
 

BGreen

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So for example last weekend it was like 34* out and snowing with lots of fresh snow. I went with toko yellow which should be good for that high temp range. My skis felt slow and sticky. Should I have went harder (red) since the snow was fresh? or something else wrong?

That’s where you need to learn how to use a system and also learn the compromises you are making. I probably would have gone red/yellow 1:1 and fluoro. Possibly DLC if there was junk in the snow (pollen, dust, dirt, or if you are skiing against a highway with a lot of diesel fumes mixed in the snow). As @Sibhusky said, you need to learn what wax is and how it works, then it is just about matching the hardness to the surface, fluoro content to the moisture, and picking an anti- stat or opting not to use one. Any major wax system is good. Mixing and matching is ok too.

So in your case, it’s warm so you want a warm wax (yellow). It’s new snow so increase the hardness. In Swix I might drop down a hardness (use 7 instead of 8), in toko propbably just mix with the next harder wax. For an anti stat I might use Moly Fluor to address wet friction.

@otto has a good video about wax selection:
 
Thread Starter
TS
J

Jason Kurth

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ok so prob just needed some red

I like toko so def would want to stick with it

in that situation is there any merit to using a yellow iron in, then putting a red cork in top coat? or just mix?
 

BGreen

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ok so prob just needed some red

I like toko so def would want to stick with it

in that situation is there any merit to using a yellow iron in, then putting a red cork in top coat? or just mix?

Just mix. The idea behind toko and holmenkol is you have three basic wax hardnesses and you mix to get what you need. Swix accomplishes the same thing by using more waxes that you rarely need to mix.
 

Jacques

Workin' It on Skis Best I Can
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Apr 24, 2017
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Bend, OR
I started with toko and that's what I've stuck with for general and race waxing. Swix seems to be popular and has some more product/temp ranges though and what most racers use. So am I missing out?

For toko race waxing I just use the colored HF iron in then jetstream bloc topcoat corked in. I notice other racers glide better than me on flats even with the right temp toko w/ top coat so I wonder if I'm missing something.

What's the general swix race wax routine?

HF waxes are not going to be faster when the conditions don't call for them.
 

Jacques

Workin' It on Skis Best I Can
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Joined
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Bend, OR
So for example last weekend it was like 34* out and snowing with lots of fresh snow. I went with toko yellow which should be good for that high temp range. My skis felt slow and sticky. Should I have went harder (red) since the snow was fresh? or something else wrong?

Any time the snow if fresh you need a harder wax even if the temps. get a bit warmer. Save the yellow waxes for base prep. only.
 

Jacques

Workin' It on Skis Best I Can
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ok so prob just needed some red

I like toko so def would want to stick with it

in that situation is there any merit to using a yellow iron in, then putting a red cork in top coat? or just mix?

Red blue mix. Corking on another grade is for when you miss the mark and know it. That's a corrective measure.

Really, it sounds like you should just start using Dominator;s Zoom series of waxes.
Good waxing with the full systems takes a lot of time to learn, then conditions change and you miss the mark.
Other than that when in doubt always wax harder, not softer!
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
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Slovenia, Europe
@Jason Kurth I won't go much into waxes but to something else when you say "I notice other racers glide better than me on flats". In alpine waxes, ptex, structures etc. play much smaller role then people imagine. Ability to glide and keep ski perfectly flat is much more important then perfect wax, same goes for getting turn right, and I'm talking about WC level, which means on lower levels it's all just worse, and waxes are even less important. Of course if you do everything right, right skis, right structure and right wax can still decide if you are first or second, but in reality, there's pretty much no single run in whole season, that is done perfectly.
Another thing... few years ago, they made research where they found out ski is gliding flat on whole Wengen downhill, which is super long and fits more into glide downhills, for whole 7 seconds. All other 2min and 20seconds skis were on edges. And right waxes and structure comes to play the most only during those short 7 seconds. During other 2min 20sec, speed and end result depends way more on skiers ability to control ski, make perfect turn, get gates right etc, then on waxing. And this is about downhill, so you can see why noone, even on World cup, bothers with fluoro ovelays for SL and GS races ;)
So I would dare to bet anything that "others glide better then you" simply because they are better gliders then you, not because they have better wax.
But Toko vs. Swix... For years Toko and Swix are same company. Whole bunch of research is done in same labs, their racing services wear red (Swix) and yellow (Toko) clothes, but they work together, and they share things. Sure waxes are still a bit specific and not same stuff with different branding, and both put more into xc then in alpine (also because waxes are way more important at xc then in alpine), but personally I would say their system, Toko nor Swix, is overly complicated. But there's two things, and they don't depend on wax company. First, waxes that cover huge temperature range are fine for recreational stuff, but have basically nothing to do in racing. And second, it's pretty much impossible to hit really perfect wax without whole bunch of testing, which noone can afford by him/herself. This is done with enough people, with enough time and with enough equipment (calibrated skis, bunch of waxes to pick from etc.). Most of time same company combo (for example Swix base, Swix overlay) won't be fastest option. So you mix all sort of waxes for example Toko and Maplus HF waxes for base, and then Swix overlay on top... something what noone of company race service would ever suggest :) And to find out right combo, you need time and money.
So personally I suggest to keep stuff as simple as possible for "home" use, and especially in alpine, concentrate way more on your own skiing technique then on wax. It brings way more , and on the end, it's even cheaper :)
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
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but personally I would say their system, Toko nor Swix, is overly complicated.
I just saw I made mistake :) It should read: I would say their system is NOT overly complicated.
And maybe small addon if I'm already correcting :) Yes they both have 3 different lines of waxes plus bunch of overlays but it's quite logical and quite hard to totally miss right wax. Main point is, you should look at these 3 different lines (CH with Swix or NF with Toko, LF and HF) as basically one system, as most of time they are separated based on how much you are ready to spend (CH/NF for cheap option, HF for dad with lot of money :D). Sure in very few occasions LF or even CH can be faster then HF, but in 99% of cases, HF will always be faster and in 100% HF will be 3 times the money CH is :)
 

trailtrimmer

Stuck in the Flatlands
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Oct 18, 2016
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Michigan
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

We ran LF for SG and the championship GS races because the snow was very wet, and LF plus Dominator butter (which is a great overlay for salted slush) because of water content.

When we have warmer temps, I crayon in HF7 or HF8 and use fiberlene paper when ironing it in. I get lots of fluoro that way with almost no scraping and waste, but it only works well with warmer waxes. It costs me less to crayon in HF than it does to melt LF off the iron and scrape most of it away.
 

gwat

Putting on skis
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Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Posts
61
@otto has a good video about wax selection:

Great vid, that explains a lot.

Harder wax makes sense for sharper snow crystals. So why not run hard wax all the time? What makes soft wax faster in rounded snow crystals?
 

cantunamunch

Meh
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Harder wax makes sense for sharper snow crystals. So why not run hard wax all the time? What makes soft wax faster in rounded snow crystals?

Lower droplet radius (free water sticks less so makes smaller droplets) and lower viscosity when they are put in compression and shear at the same time.
 

Jacques

Workin' It on Skis Best I Can
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Bend, OR
Great vid, that explains a lot.

Harder wax makes sense for sharper snow crystals. So why not run hard wax all the time? What makes soft wax faster in rounded snow crystals?

Softer waxes have less internal friction. In other words, the molecules slide off on another easier. Harder waxes have more internal friction, yet will have greater external friction, thus sharp snows won't "dig in" to them so easy.
In the right conditions for softer waxes, the softer will provide better top speed, yet lack break away speed. Harder waxes will have better break away, but less top speed.
In super wet snows an HF hard wax can actually run really good given a wet base structure on the ski.

Other than that, one always needs an anti-static component in any wax job as the faster and longer the ski runs the more the static builds up.

Then, if one does not scrape and brush well, the wax choices can still be slower for the same given conditions.

When in doubt always wax harder. Or just try the Dominator Zoom series of waxes and see how that works for you.

Good luck.
 

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