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martyg

Making fresh tracks
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The reason why powder skiing is exhausting is because of something you do in your groomer skiing....

Exactly. The fundamentals and physics do not change. Being a "good" skier (in quotations because I do not use that term with students) is about efficiencies). A skier is either efficient or inefficient.

As I have said before.... The technique advise that you will receive on-line costs about what it is worth. You may have a very experienced instructor chatting with you. However the human interaction if leading you down a progression, helping you unlock sensations, and taking you down that path is missing.

My advice to you.... go to your local hill on a weekday. Book an intermediate group lesson. Request an instructor that skis with video (I ski / teach with an iPad and video analysis app). You will likely end up in a private due to lack of ski school bookings.

Taking that lesson, and doing your homework, will pay big dividends. Efficient technique is efficient technique. That small investment will make you a better skier for years to come, and enable to extract more enjoyment out of your ski experience.

FYI at 88 underfoot you have plenty of ski under you.
 

surfsnowgirl

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Magic Mountain, Vermont
For starters, its
051743f1df428b74157958b913c6f1649aa61f-wm.jpg


I found that a nice evenly weighted two footed springy method was easier on my knees and helped me from getting in the back seat much. I often think that back seat skiing puts extra stress on the knees.
I could be wrong.


I was bouncing on tiggers tail on Sunday, thank you for this. I was even singing the song. Not sure if anyone heard me sing but I was having too much fun to care.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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I feel uncomfortable with this assertion, but I'm not 100% sure why.

I think it's because there's an unwritten part to it. "If you're skiing poorly on groomers, THEN - the fatter skis will have a greater tolerance for letting you to continue to ski poorly in the snow."

And I also think it's because to some extent it's bullshit. I'm a decent skier. Before my knee surgery, my everyday ski was a 113, and I had a 125 for deeper days. I'm here to tell you that if you push your tails or stare at your tips, you can fall just fine on fat skis. You still need to exercise patience (my least favorite virtue) in your turns.

And fat skis won't magically save you if you're in something other than blower pow - when you're in refreeze or heavy chop or sastrugi or breakable crust. I mean, they *might* save you if they keep you 100% on top of the snow - that's not my experience. Maybe tall, slender people can actually get a ski long and wide enough that they're skimming the snow like a rock on a pond. I've yet to experience it, and I've yet to see anyone doing it.



I do it a lot, and I consider it a character flaw ;-) When I lift my inside foot, it's because I didn't trust that leg to turn simultaneously with the outside leg. This absolutely means that my body is not in the right position. Most likely it means that I am leaning uphill or that I am facing sideways rather than downhill. This skiing method is tiring, and it's also led to me crossing tips with heavy powder skis because I would get tired lifting the inside leg, and I'd start failing to twist it out of the way as part of the move, and my outside ski would collide with it.

When I make the turn correctly, it's so much *easier* - both less tiring for the muscles and less irritating to the joints.

Monique - you are close to 100% in your assertions.

There are three ways that we can influence our skis as outlined in the article link. Those who need a really wide ski are skiing defensively (as one very astute member already noted) and the tend to use a lot of rotary - turning with their upper bodies, blocking at the end of turns. Wider skis tend to give a lot of flotation and allow that ski to be rotated. Go to a narrower ski and it will be in the snow. And for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Push on that snow and it pushes back. It causes the skier to recruit large muscle groups to maintain balance. That, and recovering from falls in powder, make it exhausting.

I am not at all a fan of wide skis. Tim Petrick penned a letter to the industry a few years ago that helped the industry pull its collective head out of its ass (wide skis also created the illusion to inefficient skiers that they were better than they are - creating sales, but cannibalizing sales of more reasonably dimensioned skis - basically the industry is in a place where it needs to reinvent to sell more shit to the same people). I will say this for wide skis.... When avy danger is high I get on something stupid wide to ski 15 degree slopes with no objective hazards. Wider skis allow me to mitigate avy danger with appropriate terrain selection - and still have a blast. For that average vacation goer out West, this is a total no factor though.

Have a great day!
 

Tricia

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The obvious point being made here is that, improving your skiing in general will improve your skiing in a variety of conditions including powder.

The point of this thread and the area *New to skiing* is that someone who is improving skills but is still relatively new to skiing may fine himself/herself on a surprise powder day and looking for some *beginner* tips to make the day enjoyable.

I know this place in skiing well and am glad that an instructor gave me the tips I needed instead of over complicating or telling me to avoid powder until I improved my basic groomer skills.

Are the instructors here telling the novice skier to go home on a powder day and come back after they’ve improved their basic skills? I hope not.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Are the instructors here telling the novice skier to go home on a powder day and come back after they’ve improved their basic skills? I hope not.

Tricia - great question - not at all on my part. More than anything is is an aligning of expectations. Absolutely the skier should go out have have fun, experiment, fall, enjoy. However those inefficient movement patterns will still be there. If they want to improve their craft there is a known progression that involves discipline, delayed gratification and coaching (regardless if it is skiing, kayaking, surgery, music, etc). If the skier in question wants the best ROI out of their Western ski trip (destination is a supposition on my part) taking a few lessons now will enhance that experience, and may have an effect as profound as preventing a life altering injury.

Absolutely there is a time to send it, and a time to drill. I start every ski day (regardless if I am working or free skiing) on a long green run. I go through my checklist - what are the things that I am working on? What are the sensations that I am trying to be more aware of? Am I reaching that goal on most of my turns? I also finish each day with that same exercise, on that same run. After 56 years, after 100+ days per year, it is still a journey, and the journey is the point.

One of the common threads that I have seen in skill acquisition as it applies to skiing, kayaking, entrepreneurship, finance, etc. is that people want a quick fix. They want the quick sound bite that will change their situation. No quick fix exists. A person has to do the time and the work to be proficient at their craft.

While this was posted previously, it has significant relevance to this discussion: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/path-improvement-marty-grabijas/

Enjoy the journey.
 

PTskier

Been goin' downhill for years....
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Washington, the state
The obvious point being made here is that, improving your skiing in general will improve your skiing in a variety of conditions including powder.
If I can pick one nit here...It depends on what technique is used to improve the skiing in general. If improvement means better steering of a ski flat on the snow, that makes skiing really tough in deep snow. Marty writes about drilling, and the correct drill for the conditions of the day is important. As my avatar shows, and Marty writes, simple but wrong answers are loved by multitudes. Complex but right answers are needed but too often unrecognized.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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If I can pick one nit here...It depends on what technique is used to improve the skiing in general. If improvement means better steering of a ski flat on the snow, that makes skiing really tough in deep snow. Marty writes about drilling, and the correct drill for the conditions of the day is important. As my avatar shows, and Marty writes, simple but wrong answers are loved by multitudes. Complex but right answers are needed but too often unrecognized.

And then there's the third, better possibility... Simple and correct.
 

LiquidFeet

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When I was a freshman undergraduate I took an introductory course in special relativity, taught as a January term course back when short intense courses between semesters were popular. The prof made the physics quite accessible. He was clearly a genius who loved to teach the hard stuff to anyone, not just physics majors. Of course, as a young woman, I fell in love with him, if only from a distance. I promptly became a physics major, and took every course I could from him. This was heady stuff. I still have my notebooks from those courses somewhere. I made drawings of this prof in the margins.

What I learned from that two year encounter with a brilliant physicist (which promptly ended when he asked me why I was majoring in physics since all I was going to do was get married and have kids) was that difficult and complex things can be framed in a way that makes them accessible to the general public. Doing that translation can be fun, and those on the receiving end usually appreciate it.

My point: it's a worthy goal for teachers of any subject to seek ways to make difficult material digestible, memorable, and even inspiring -- for the ordinary student.
 
Last edited:

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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When I was a freshman undergraduate I took an introductory course in special relativity, taught as a January term course back when short intense courses between semesters were popular. The prof made the physics quite accessible. He was clearly a genius who loved to teach the hard stuff to anyone, not just physics majors. Of course, as a young woman, I fell in love with him, if only from a distance. I promptly became a physics major, and took every course I could from him. This was heady stuff. I still have my notebooks from those courses somewhere. I made drawings of this prof in the margins.

What I learned from that two year encounter with a brilliant physicist (which promptly ended when he asked me why I was majoring in physics since all I was going to do was get married and have kids) was that difficult and complex things can be framed in a way that makes them accessible to the general public. Doing that translation can be fun, and those on the receiving end usually appreciate it.

My point: it's a worthy goal for teachers of any subject to seek ways to make difficult material digestible, memorable, and even inspiring -- for the ordinary student.

LF - excellent post. My mentor is someone who was on the US Ski Team, coached the US and several other national teams, is up there in years and moves like silk in the wind. His greatest inspiration to me is his ability to say eight words and fundamentally alter your skiing and understanding of what is going on. It is what I strive for when coaching or mentoring someone.

I don't however believe that the "material" of skiing is difficult to digest. It is however hard to execute. As I tell people, there are very, very few things that one has to do to be a good skier (or kayaker, or designers, of entrepreneur). And the better that we can do those few things, the more mastery we will have of our chosen craft.

In skiing we are faced with a situation where the most efficient movement pattern is the most counter-initiative to our survival instincts. That makes those few simple things difficult, and requires perfect practice to build the appropriate neuro-muscular pathways.
 

Tricia

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My point: it's a worthy goal for teachers of any subject to seek ways to make difficult material digestible, memorable, and even inspiring -- for the ordinary student.
Yes!
The subject of a future article will be in defense of low snow years. Those are the years where you become a better skier.
The 5 years of drought in Tahoe were some of my best skill improvement years. I continued to ski 80+ days/yr and took lessons when I could
 

Bob Barnes

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Let me tell a little (true) story. It was a perfect Colorado powder day at Aspen Highlands a few years ago, with maybe 8 inches of fresh new snow. As I rode up the lift with the lady who had signed up for a private lesson, I asked her what was on her mind for today. "Well," she said, "I feel like I ski pretty well on groomed corduroy, with a lot of confidence even on the steeper blue pitches. But when we get powder like this..."

"Let me guess," I interrupted her, "your skis feel 'stuck' when you ski powder, like you can't turn them, right?"

"YES!" she replied. "Yes! That's exactly it!" She looked so relieved and excited, like she'd finally found the magician who could unlock the secrets of skiing powder for her. "Is there a cure for that?"

"No, there is no cure for that," I said. And the air went completely out of her, and all her enthusiasm vanished as she realized that she'd probably just completely wasted her money. I thought maybe she was going to hit me, or push me off the chair, or jump off herself!

"The only difference between you and me," I continued, "is that I LIKE my skis to feel 'stuck.'"

'Stuck' is the sensation of skis not skidding sideways, but holding the road, gliding forward and shaping my turn. 'Stuck' is what I almost always want my skis to do when I tip them on edge. 'Stuck' and gripping is what it is so hard to get our skis to do on ice sometimes. It was clear from this brief conversation, without even seeing her ski yet, that my student was a defensive braker, that on those groomed runs, she felt confident only because it is easy to twist the skis sideways into a skid on groomed snow, and once skidding, that skid is predictable and easy to control. But it is, indeed, hard to twist those skis sideways in powder (which is why they feel 'stuck'), and if you work hard enough and succeed, skis moving sideways in powder are very UNpredictable--especially if the powder is at all heavy, or if it has a few tracks in it already. As I described earlier (post #52 on page 3 of this thread), skiing powder is much easier if you keep your skis moving forward through it, moving the direction they're pointed, rather than sideways.

But if your habit is to ski defensively, using your skis and edges primarily as brakes to scrub off speed by skidding sideways, you will quickly find that those habits and techniques don't work well in powder. Groomed "hero snow" forgives these defensive habits. Powder (and moreso, crud) does not! Expert skiers habitually glide, slice, and carve turns when they can, keeping their skis moving the direction they're pointed as much as possible (although they certainly brake when they need to). It's why their skiing can appear so effortless and elegant, and it is why so many here in this thread advocate skiing the "same way" in powder as on groomed snow. If you ski offensively, using tactics and line to minimize the need to brake, using your edges to grip (to keep your skis 'stuck' to the road and not skidding sideways), your technique will work at least as well in powder. As several have suggested above, when skis are slicing through the snow and carving turns, there is little need to "bounce" or unweight them (unweighting makes it easier to twist your skis sideways into a skid--if you aren't trying to do that, there is no need to unweight or "bounce").

However, for the majority of recreational skiers whose habits are defensive, powder snow will, indeed, reveal the deficiencies in your technique. It isn't that you should do the "same thing" in powder that you do on groomed snow, it is that you may need to transform your groomer technique to one that will work in powder! (And powder's opposite--ice--which also benefits from not pushing or twisting skis into a braking skid.) So the advice simply to "not bounce" is questionable or, at least, perhaps oversimplified. You may need to transform your defensive technique and tactics (where unweighting may be helpful, and bouncing in powder may actually be the only thing that works) into offensive technique and tactics. It is a fundamental paradigm shift to the expert skier's way of thinking that may not be easy to accomplish in new and challenging conditions. But once you make this shift--to "wanting" your skis to 'stick'--you will find that powder suddenly gets easy, ice becomes possible and even enjoyable, and even your groomed snow skiing gets more fun, more effortless, with the intoxicating sensations of gliding and floating and flying. It's a whole new world!

And so, as the chairlift ride continued, we started discussing what I have long described as the expert skier's paradigm of "skiing the slow line fast," of thinking of turns not as "slow" thoughts but as "GO!" thoughts--turning to "go that way," not to "stop going this way," and of using turns not to control speed, but to eliminate the need to control speed. She was intrigued. Intent dictates technique, so it was not that her technique or skills were "wrong"--it was just that they were solutions to the wrong problem. Changing the intent brought out the offensive movements and ski performance of gliding, slicing, and carving--and skiing powder got suddenly easy, almost a foregone conclusion as soon as she realized that 'stuck' skis holding the line and slicing forward through the snow were actually a good thing. We did not need so much to learn new skills as simply to re-purpose the skills she already possessed. She didn't learn to get her skis "unstuck" from the deep snow, or to get better at what she was trying to do--she learned to do something entirely different.

It is the best-kept secret in skiing, that turns are not for speed control but for direction control. But it takes powder, crud, ice, or other challenging conditions to discover how really important that secret is. Experts don't make it look so effortless just because they're so much more skilled at what they do--it's more because what they do is fundamentally different from what most skiers do. Discover that transformation--start thinking like an expert--and everything, including (especially) powder--will get much easier and even more fun!

Best regards,
Bob
 

CalG

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Lots of useful examples of "bouncing" here.

When the snow is deep enough, one can NOT bounce off the bottom, rather, one must bounce off the snow compaction under foot and one's own velocity.

Hint:
Ski with enough enthusiasm to assure that the ski tips show out from the the depths from time to time.

I will comment that fresh snow that does not bury even the boot tops can be skied like any groomed trail. Keep yourself following the tips. Thin fresh snow is much like "ego snow" with an added hazard of ski tips being deflected.
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
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Lots of useful examples of "bouncing" here.

When the snow is deep enough, one can NOT bounce off the bottom, rather, one must bounce off the snow compaction under foot and one's own velocity.

Hint:
Ski with enough enthusiasm to assure that the ski tips show out from the the depths from time to time.

I will comment that fresh snow that does not bury even the boot tops can be skied like any groomed trail. Keep yourself following the tips. Thin fresh snow is much like "ego snow" with an added hazard of ski tips being deflected.
Pretty bad skiing, at least the first sequence, I couldn't watch anymore.

There is absolutely no reason to ski that way, takes more energy plus you lose pressure and contact in the first half of the turn.

Don't do it.

It's been at least 25 years since good skiers skied like this.
 

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
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Southern NH
To the original post, this is the progression we went through with the U10s yesterday. Granted, it was a NH powder day (i.e. wet and about 5-6"), but we have athletes that 6" is shin deep and look like they weigh less than 60#. Many admitted that they struggle with powder and prefer not to ski it but by the end of the day, were having fun and enjoying it.

Deb Armstrong is awesome!


We went through many of the myths (i.e. leaning back), tactics, line, and some does and don'ts (no hockey stops!).

It's helpful if you have seen her other videos to because she references them, but even without it, you'll get the idea.

Have fun,
Ken
 
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