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TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
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Bouncing works in powder, but I don't advocate the use of that technique.
 

Tricia

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Bouncing works in powder, but I don't advocate the use of that technique.
Sorry... :)
It seemed to work well for me.
Do you have a better technique?
 

TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
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No problem Tricia... It definitely works. I don't think it's the best way and I'm not sure I have the energy to compose a decent post about how exactly one should ski powder. I generally would say that the powder turn is a lot like the mogul turn with the knees coming towards the chest in transition/edge change and the legs getting long towards the apex of the turn. The other huge thing is skiing closer to the fall line with less turn finish than you would use on hard pack. The friction from skiing in the snow slows you down and you won't go as fast as you think you will if you are used to skiing on hard pack. You will do better if you change edges before you try to turn rather than trying to turn before edge change like many people do on packed snow. This applies also in crud, slush, and all 3d type conditions. The bigger and rounder the turn shape is the easier it is to ski in all conditions, but it applies more to 3d snow than flat snow. It's the shape of the turn relative to the fall line and the amount of drift, shmear, starve, skid that you apply that controls speed in all conditions. Accurately managing the speed at which you ski makes it much easier to remain balanced over your feet particularly the outside foot. Maintaining balance builds confidence which leads to flow and ultimately speed if speed is what you are looking for. Ski the mountain, never let the mountain ski you!
 

Tricia

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No problem Tricia... It definitely works. I don't think it's the best way and I'm not sure I have the energy to compose a decent post about how exactly one should ski powder. I generally would say that the powder turn is a lot like the mogul turn with the knees coming towards the chest in transition/edge change and the legs getting long towards the apex of the turn. The other huge thing is skiing closer to the fall line with less turn finish than you would use on hard pack. The friction from skiing in the snow slows you down and you won't go as fast as you think you will if you are used to skiing on hard pack. You will do better if you change edges before you try to turn rather than trying to turn before edge change like many people do on packed snow. This applies also in crud, slush, and all 3d type conditions. The bigger and rounder the turn shape is the easier it is to ski in all conditions, but it applies more to 3d snow than flat snow. It's the shape of the turn relative to the fall line and the amount of drift, shmear, starve, skid that you apply that controls speed in all conditions. Accurately managing the speed at which you ski makes it much easier to remain balanced over your feet particularly the outside foot. Maintaining balance builds confidence which leads to flow and ultimately speed if speed is what you are looking for. Ski the mountain, never let the mountain ski you!
Thanks.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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No problem Tricia... It definitely works. I don't think it's the best way and I'm not sure I have the energy to compose a decent post about how exactly one should ski powder.

I know you said you don't have the energy/time to compose a full response - and I totally get that! - but if it works, what makes it not the best way? How is it inferior to what you describe?

I personally don't bounce, but I wish I would remember to try it strategically - for example, testing the snow on a traverse or initiating my first turn, where the friction might be pretty high.
 

Fishbowl

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I find that a small, gentle, rhythmic bounce in powder helps to keep my weight centered and my feet together. Both of these items contribute in creating a stable platform to balance on, and at the end of the day, it’s all about balance. Obviously there are more sophisticated techniques to ski powder, but this simple little trick is often what gets many skiers unstuck in powder. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
 

at_nyc

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I used to bounce. But I found nowadays with the wider skis, the need for bouncing is reduced. More like a subtle unweighing than a pronounced up-down bounce..

To TPJ's point, I do find myself having to remind myself to resist the temptation to steer. (powder has very little resistance. So it's too easy to over-steer, a sure way to fall on my face)
 
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SBrown

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You will do better if you change edges before you try to turn rather than trying to turn before edge change like many people do on packed snow. This applies also in crud, slush, and all 3d type conditions.

I like that.

I also think the extension/retraction stuff could be translated as bouncing by some, iykwim.
 

Rio

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I find when skiing powder that if I'm getting tired quickly its because I am bouncing or standing up straighter or sitting back or doing some other antiquated old-school technique. Forget all the 'tricks' to skiing powder. Learn to make committed turns then get some good powder skis and don't change your technique. Skiing powder now days is more about faith than anything. You have to believe in your skis and technique. Everything else will fall in place.
 

Rod9301

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I find when skiing powder that if I'm getting tired quickly its because I am bouncing or standing up straighter or sitting back or doing some other antiquated old-school technique. Forget all the 'tricks' to skiing powder. Learn to make committed turns then get some good powder skis and don't change your technique. Skiing powder now days is more about faith than anything. You have to believe in your skis and technique. Everything else will fall in place.
So true, there is no need we whatsoever to bounce up and down when skiing powder.

Except in conditions that most likely you will never be in

Like a really narrow steep couloir where you would need to make jump turns.

But assuming that you have a little more space to turn, make the same turn as you would in a groomer.

BTW, unrelated and not recommended, but with wide skis you can slide then around in powder.

I do it often when I have to scope a steep line without stopping.
I simply sideslip (in powder) while looking for a line that I want to ski.
 

Crank

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I guess I am not like you guys. I tend to change my technique for different conditions and different terrain as well.

This thread reminds me of the mogul lesson thread that was Energizer Bunny like in that it kept on going...and going... way beyond what would pertain to the beginning mogul skier.
 

slowrider

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But assuming that you have a little more space to turn, make the same turn as you would in a groomer.

Check please.
 

SSSdave

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Markojp video link to Deb Armstrong skiing powder shows how to do so in a relaxed way that most advanced skiers that bounce really don't ever reach because they either are not on a balanced flex ski with a softer shovel and tail that rebounds like off a centered trampoline or they have not developed a short turn dynamic technique that slalom racers and mogul skiers have. If you can ski like that you will know it because one can go long distances in most powder conditions without having to stop due to tiring despite being very dynamic. Just watch Deb. Also years ago took my tank-like fat Chubbs out in powder to do the longer turn style that indeed can be good fun but prefer a bouncy style because for me that is more enjoyable.
 

Rio

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Argh!!!! Excess anything kills you in the steeps and in the bumps. Build a hop into your powder turns and it will come back to bite you when you try to ski powder on steep slopes. I've skied numerous times with instructors from the old ESAs and it is amazing to watch them. Their turns look the same skiing steep deep powder as they do warming up on a blue groomer. Efficient, smooth and committed is the best way to describe their turns, especially in powder.
 

John J

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I think skiing pow all comes back to solid fundamentals. In my opinion, alignment or skiing stacked is an underrated topic. I agree with an earlier post where someone mentioned that if you struggle in powder, bumps and crud, there is probably something going on in your groomer skiing. I think that something is an alignment issue, (equipment issues notwithstanding). If a skier isn't stacked, chances are, they are out of balance to one degree or another. A skier may be able to get away with bad alignment on gentler terrain, but put that same skier on steeper terrain, deep pow, bumps and crud...well, they are probably going to struggle, spend more time traversing before they commit to the next turn or fall down a lot, and they probably have no idea why.

It's all about building a solid platform to balance on. Center balance (equal weight on balls and heels of feet), toes, knees and shoulders lined up, hands in front, head up. Chances are fairly high that the graphics on your skis are not going to change, so there is no need to keep staring down at them, plus that contributes to a loss of balance. If you think you may have poor alignment, then you need to practice being stacked so that it becomes part of your muscle memory. It won't happen over night. New motor skills take time to develop before you "own" them. Some example from this thread showing the alignment I'm referring to are from Josh's post #37. Without watching the video, the skier featured on the cover is in perfect alignment. In Bob Barnes post #52, on all 3 video covers, he is in perfect alignment. Granted, it's harder to tell with the 2nd and 3rd video covers because with the 2nd one it appears he is about to transition into a new turn and his body is starting to come across his skis, and the 3rd you can't see his feet and knees. It's there though.

With all this stacked/alignment mumbo jumbo being said, it doesn't mean you won't ever get out of balance, but the things that cause you to become unbalanced are a symptom of failing to maintain the alignment I'm talking about. Examples from my own skiing when skiing steep terrain with large bumps include: losing my inside hand above or behind me. This causes my upper body to rotate into the hill, which typically puts me in the back seat, both of which = loss of balance. Failing to maintain lateral balance over my outside ski. (I should mention, the only thing I do differently in deep pow is ski with my feet closer together). I like to ski over the top of bumps, which allows me to turn easier and push my tips down, when the ground falls away from me quicker or more than I was anticipating, I tend to lose lateral balance and start falling into the hill. The point is, no one skis every turn of every run perfectly. If I get 75 to 80% of my powder turns right and 50% of my bump turns right, I'm a pretty happy camper. Being able to RECOVER to that stacked/ aligned position of balance is what I strive for, and what allows me to keep going and enjoy my day. If I end up eating a big **** sandwich... that's part of it too.
 

Tricia

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I guess I am not like you guys. I tend to change my technique for different conditions and different terrain as well.

This thread reminds me of the mogul lesson thread that was Energizer Bunny like in that it kept on going...and going... way beyond what would pertain to the beginning mogul skier.
I agree.
Sometimes the members who post here need to remember the section where they are posting.
 

Tricia

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I think skiing pow all comes back to solid fundamentals. In my opinion, alignment or skiing stacked is an underrated topic. I agree with an earlier post where someone mentioned that if you struggle in powder, bumps and crud, there is probably something going on in your groomer skiing.
Welcome to Pugski.
By your first post I think you're going to be a great resource here.
In my post above, I quoted @Crank who pointed out a sincere thought on who we are addressing in this particular area - New to skiing.
That implies that this person is going to be working on the foundations of groomer skiing and is likely working on the fundamentals that you're talking about.

Imagine you're the beginner skier and you happen upon a powder day.
What is the tip you'd give that beginner to have a decent experience since those fundamentals aren't in place yet?
 

John J

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Honestly, I wouldn't bring a brand new skier into steep and deep powder. If it's an intermediate skier (and assuming I don't know them or their skiing habits, but assuming I'm responsible for them that day) wanting to dabble into new terrain, I would want to see how they handle gentler terrain first so I can evaluate what's going on in their skiing. I would also want answers to questions like how their boots are fitting them, and how they stand in their boots to begin with, (if they are curling their toes, lifting their heel out of the heel cup, or standing normally). If after all that, and they seem confident enough, I would bring them to a blue run and continue to evaluate them perhaps by making some slow speed turns seeing if they can lift their inside ski with the tip touching the snow, or perhaps just tapping their inside ski during a traverse. If a skier just lifts their inside ski up off of the snow there is a tendency to go directly into the back seat (shoulders back behind the knees and toes). Keeping the tip on the snow tends to promote the more balanced "stacked" position. If it's a powder day, the snow is going to get tracked out fairly quickly and they are going to have to deal with bumps at some point. I might also want to find a small ridge to practice absorbing terrain and pushing the tips down in order for them to get a feeling for what its like. I'd also probably want to discuss lateral balance for a few minutes. If after all of that and their balance seems up to snuff, and assuming there is still some untracked powder, I would demonstrate starting out in powder. Point 'em down hill, make a quarter turn and launch into a rhythm. If they are new to powder and all those fundamentals haven't been fully developed, yeah, they will struggle. But falling in fluffy powder can be fun and funny, which enhances the experience. If I'm not involved in any of that process, my suggestion to a new or intermediate skier would be to hire an instructor for the morning or the whole day if they can afford it. Although I'm not an instructor, I think an instructor may do some of the same things I mentioned. Plus, an instructor is probably trained by their ski school on how to make the experience fun. Again, that's an assumption on my part.
 

PTskier

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I find that when it comes to quick turns where there is significant pitch, whether in the trees or in an open bowl, it is handy to lift the feet out of the snow rather than push them into the snow as a means to 'hop turn.' When you push your feet into the snow you are getting your skis deeper rather than out of the snow; the opposite of what you desire. If you retract your legs when you need to perform a quick turn in deep snow, the skis come up out of the snow without 'applying the brake' of pushing prior to hopping.
Important point. The retraction turn is both quicker and less tiring than a bouncy extension turn. Extension turns are only needed when an obstacle needs to be jumped, you just want to jump for joy, when the only movement you know is to slide your skis sideways, to clear breakable crust, or your boots don't fit well. Doug made a point about dorsiflexing the ankles (closing the angle) to raise the tips. Maybe, but just relaxing both legs will let the skis flatten and rise. There is no need for them to come to the surface. On a steep pitch we want to pull our heels up to our butt during the transition so the ski tails don't get caught in the snow.

How wide a ski is needed for powder? Actually, the flex pattern is more important. We gray muzzle skiers all started on long straight narrow skis and had great fun if the tip & tail had soft even flex. I had a fine day in warm heavy Vail fresh snow 11" deep on my 78mm Stöckli Laser AX skis. Wider skis make some things easier, and also cover more deficiencies in technique. It ain't the wand, it's the magician. I'm very pleased with my 2013 Head Rock n Roll 95 mm powder skis with their sweet flex pattern.
 
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Seldomski

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Another tip for skiing powder...

Try to ski smooth speed with round turns. If you are z turning on groomers, you will have a hard time in powder.

Z turn usually consists of a pivot or steering move at the start of the turn. These don't work in powder- there is too much snow resistance to allow the pivot . You need to tip the ski and wait for it to work. Don't force it. If you can make round turns (without steering) on groomer, powder is not far off.

I have a theory on bouncing in powder. Bouncing can help a bit, but I think what the bouncing actually does is distract you from steering the ski and makes you wait for the ski to turn. So the hop is fun, but not really the direct cause of a better powder turn.
 

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