AmyPJ

No longer on the single track.
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So are you saying we can never pass? If I'm passing and giving someone a lot of room and they suddenly decide to make a sharp turn away from what they've been doing then they better look first! If they don't and get hit then I agree it's their own fault.
The skier ahead ALWAYS has the right of way.
 

James

Skiing the powder
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The skier ahead ALWAYS has the right of way.
If the "overtaker" is well to the side and the overtaken makes a sharp turn hitting the overtaker, the overtaker was "ahead".
Now if one of them requires an undertaker, you can be sure the family will have plenty of takers to bring a suit, taking them to the cleaners.
 

David

"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
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Not according to Skier's Responsibility Code posted on the National Ski Area Association web site.
Please consider code items #1 and #2.

Seven Points to Your Responsibility Code
  1. Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  2. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  3. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  4. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  6. Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  7. Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
When driving my car it's my responsibility not to hit the car ahead of me. But if someone swerves right in front of me and then hits the brakes getting hit whose fault is that?
 

David

"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
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The skier ahead ALWAYS has the right of way.
I agree with you but at some point they are responsible as well. They should not abruptly change their trajectory endangering others. At least that's the way I was taught. If I'm riding my bike on the street and swerve into a car passing me is it the cars fault?

That said I always give extra room especially with kids and beginners. I've only ever hit a friend because we were screwing around as kids and I've been sent into the trees more than a few times. But...
 

markojp

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I agree with you but at some point they are responsible as well. They should not abruptly change their trajectory endangering others. At least that's the way I was taught. If I'm riding my bike on the street and swerve into a car passing me is it the cars fault?

That said I always give extra room especially with kids and beginners. I've only ever hit a friend because we were screwing around as kids and I've been sent into the trees more than a few times. But...


I'd say that since 1966, I've never had moment of conceptual difficulty accepting the idea that the downhill skier has the right of way. Not even once, not even briefly.
 
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François Pugh

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Well, this statement is completely against the Responsibility Code. This is a good reason to reinforce what is actually said in the code. Here’s the it is:

Seven Points to Your Responsibility Code
  1. Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  2. People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  3. You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  4. Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  6. Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  7. Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
KNOW THE CODE: IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

This is from the NSAA website. http://www.nsaa.org/safety-programs/responsibility-code/

So, you don’t have an absolute right to pass. As the uphill skier you have the responsibility to pass safely. If you can’t do it safely, slow down and stay behind that individual until you can pass safely. If you have to stop, then stop.
Read the above code very carefully. Nowhere does it say the skier ahead must not make sudden erratic turns. They can and sometimes will. That is why when I pass someone, I make sure that no matter what they do, we cannot not collide under Newtonian laws of physics. In fact, these days I give a little extra room to be polite. (it's amazing how some folks opinion of too close is pretty far away)
 

AmyPJ

No longer on the single track.
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Yep, from the code: People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
Doesn't get more clear than that. Yes, people ahead will make stupid moves, will cut across without looking uphill, will suddenly stop without looking uphill, and sometimes, they'll crash! How dare they.

I treat skiing the same as driving--defensively, always alert to what's going on around me. But I don't have rear view mirrors, nor does anyone else on the hill. So I do my best to give a very wide berth when overtaking people and will typically slow down for a minute. I've also been known to clack my poles to alert them that I am there. Again, they don't have eyes back there, but I sure hope they can hear me and don't have earbuds in. I never assume that they CAN hear me, but it can't hurt to alert them.

Anyway, massive thread drift. It's rather alarming the number of folks who don't know the code. Remember, it's no skin off anyone's nose to slow down and overtake someone slowly. It's a lot of skin off everyone's nose if you overtake too fast and end up hurting possibly BOTH people.
 

fatbob

Making fresh tracks
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The skier ahead ALWAYS has the right of way.
Nope - see point 4

Though to be fair on any given run there will usually be at least half a dozen skiers demonstrating that they've never heard of that rule- more if in a ski school group class
 
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markojp

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Nope - see point 4

Though to be fair on any given run there will usually be at least half a dozen skiers demonstrating that they've never heard of that rule- more if in a ski school group class
I go over both one and four, particularly four with every group I teach. Always look up the hill before you start. "Look up and live" as a friend likes to say.
 

James

Skiing the powder
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8,155
[Powder etiquette - one person mentioned "...ski the fall line and leave something for the others". Or words to that effect. [email protected] ]

I understand the concept and why it matters... and I have very little experience with powder. But this would be a tough one for me. I'm a meander-er. I tend to wander across the hill in various places looking for particular terrain features or snow conditions. Granted this is mostly on groomers, so maybe as I get more experience it will change.

But the few times I've skied some powder (not untouched at all), the same thing applied to some extent. I don't want to be limited in where I go, and skiing the same repetitive turn the entire way down the fall line is kind of "meh". I'm not sure I could have matched someone else's line even if trying anyway.
I know this is a little old, just checking if you’ve made any progress in your education.
If you realize yet there’s nothing “meh’ about skiing powder even if you maintain a smallish corridor. If not, you still need more powder therapy.

The wandering around a powder field is pretty funny. If you’ve got a heli filming, are doing 50mph, and the avy conditions are seemingly ok, then I can see it. Otherwise, I’m trying to figure where you’ll just have the freedom to go wherever. Certainly not in the back country as that would be dangerous.

Lets say your at Snowmass skiing the Big Burn area with 12 inches of powder. That area is ridiculously wide A quarter mile? Now on your own you could make some large turns, “wandering”. They will be somewhat limited because it’s not very sterp and you need to keep up some speed or fun goes away and drudgery ensues walking in pow. But you could do it.

So now imagine your with a group of a dozen you’ve spent all week with. Your “wandering” will now cut into someone else’s path and they have to ski through your tracks. Yeah, not the worst thing in the world, but there's a big difference between untracked and tracked. (Possibly more pow therapy is needed to understand this.) So, by doing you self expressed wandering through a pow field, you’ve deprived others of the profound experience of skiing untracked. For no good reason. Were you saving a child? Helping someone stuck? No, you were mindlessly wandering around, destroying fresh powder for no good reason. Everyone, including you, could have easily enjoy untracked instead, by staying in a corridor. You might be the only one considering that “meh”.
 

Uncle-A

In the words of Paul Simon "You can call me Al"
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When an up hill skier is going to pass a slower down hill skier does the up hill skier have to observe the path of the down hill skier and anticipate the slower skiers next turn and stay out of the way of the next few turns when making that pass? One time when I got run down I had been making steady consecutive turns that would have been easy to anticipate but I still got hit.
 

pchewn

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I agree with you but at some point they are responsible as well. They should not abruptly change their trajectory endangering others. At least that's the way I was taught. If I'm riding my bike on the street and swerve into a car passing me is it the cars fault?

That said I always give extra room especially with kids and beginners. I've only ever hit a friend because we were screwing around as kids and I've been sent into the trees more than a few times. But...
You've been "sent into the trees" because you are not passing safely. Slow down, time the pass properly, give more room. For your safety and for the safety of those you are passing.
 

fatbob

Making fresh tracks
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2,397
I have to say that while powder etiquette is all well and good there is a certain joy in big bow wavey GS turns rather than powder 8 wiggles. I also think people get too hung up on the absolutely untracked pushing wider and wider on traverses for less vert - whereas you can drop in early for sloppy seconds on a line and have as much fun and turn the lap around faster.
 

markojp

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When an up hill skier is going to pass a slower down hill skier does the up hill skier have to observe the path of the down hill skier and anticipate the slower skiers next turn and stay out of the way of the next few turns when making that pass? One time when I got run down I had been making steady consecutive turns that would have been easy to anticipate but I still got hit.
It's not debatable.... yes. Always leave plenty of room when over taking someone. It ISN'T difficult, and yes, the overtaking skier might have to change their rhythm, line, or speed to do so safely. FWIW, while working on the hill, if I collide with another skier and it's my fault, it's a fireable offense. Every time this topic comes up on any ski forum, I scratch my head. The 'yeahbutt's' astound me. If you can't avoid a moving, downhill skier, you're simply out of control or skiing too fast for the conditions. Conditions include slope traffic and lengths of clear line of sight.
 

pchewn

Out on the slopes
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Skiing is not driving, not sailboat racing, not paragliding, not skateboarding, not pedestrian walking, not scuba diving, and not bicycling. Each activity has their own rules. Use the SKIING rules which say that the uphill skier must yield to the downhill skier. The downhill skier can (and will) go wherever they want/need ... the uphill skier must miss them when overtaking.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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Skiing is not driving, not sailboat racing, not paragliding, not skateboarding, not pedestrian walking, not scuba diving, and not bicycling. Each activity has their own rules. Use the SKIING rules which say that the uphill skier must yield to the downhill skier. The downhill skier can (and will) go wherever they want/need ... the uphill skier must miss them when overtaking.
Gosh it's simple, eh?
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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PNW aka SEA
I have to say that while powder etiquette is all well and good there is a certain joy in big bow wavey GS turns rather than powder 8 wiggles. I also think people get too hung up on the absolutely untracked pushing wider and wider on traverses for less vert - whereas you can drop in early for sloppy seconds on a line and have as much fun and turn the lap around faster.
Case in point:

thumbnail.jpeg
ogsmile
 

James

Skiing the powder
Instructor
Posts
8,155
I have to say that while powder etiquette is all well and good there is a certain joy in big bow wavey GS turns rather than powder 8 wiggles. I also think people get too hung up on the absolutely untracked pushing wider and wider on traverses for less vert - whereas you can drop in early for sloppy seconds on a line and have as much fun and turn the lap around faster.
Agree. We do have to train the new guy though. After he learns the rules he can break them.
That appears to make both points. The likely first tracks were not overlapping.
 

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