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crgildart

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The majority of the skiing public are quite happy just skiing around and enjoying themselves at their own level - unless these unicorns are hiding out somewhere......

Once folks reach an acceptable (to them) level of skiing be it comfortably cruising blues and scraping down blacks to say "I did it" I agree. Those who thirst to be "great" instead of good chase those unicorns in Instructor clinics or high dollar race coached race teams..

As for the demand and pricing. Makes no difference how many people or how few customers there are.. the price model should reflect what the cost of goods is plus reasonable profit. And that cost should include paying the employees to deliver the service Those employees should be getting a reasonable wage without having to rely on tips.. And I think the gross inequity of resort profits versus instructor pay is pretty obvious here When the clients fix that on their end we've upset the model in favor of the management over the worker..
 
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crgildart

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I wish tipping did not exist. But...


A decent tip is part of the price.
Perhaps the ski school should post a sign that says "A 15% gratuity will be added to all groups of 6 or more people"??
 

crgildart

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Here's another custom that dosen't make sense. Yes, we tip servers who we know are making far less than actual minimum wage. But, we also tip our hair stylist someone we also see on a regular basis who is usually earning at least the minimum wage before tips. Yet, not many of us tip our music teachers or other experts like karate instructors with every lesson.. Because we assume the high price paid for lessons covers the cost for deliverables weekly. An annual holiday gift is more the norm for those folks. Ski lessons fall in to that high price upfront category like music or karate lessons. But, we don't tip the latter... because it is frequent?? Yet we tip hair stylists... paid more than min wage.... also frequent..

Brings us back to why tip the instructor but not the rental shop person or liftee?
 

surfsnowgirl

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Magic Mountain, Vermont
If I get tips it's usually with a private over a group lesson. However, that's not why I teach so while it's appreciated I don't really care one way or the other. I do think in general tipping is a US thing. I know with restaurants and such tipping isn't really done in the UK where we visit often. That aside I believe tipping ones instructor is good because it shows appreciation. I don't think people often know that we accept tips. We don't get paid much and while $$ isn't why we do it I think a little $$ is nice to show appreciation of all their time, effort and knowledge. Especially if there's an aha moment during the lesson. I never tipped before I became an instructor, I didn't know. Now I always tip my instructor because I know I appreciate it so I figure they will too.
 

ScotsSkier

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Once folks reach an acceptable (to them) level of skiing be it comfortably cruising blues and scraping down blacks to say "I did it" I agree. Those who thirst to be "great" instead of good chase those unicorns in Instructor clinics or high dollar race coached race teams..

As for the demand and pricing. Makes no difference how many people or how few customers there are.. the price model should reflect what the cost of goods is plus reasonable profit. And that cost should include paying the employees to deliver the service Those employees should be getting a reasonable wage without having to rely on tips.. And I think the gross inequity of resort profits versus instructor pay is pretty obvious here When the clients fix that on their end we've upset the model in favor of the management over the worker..


Ah CRG, you were doing so well but now you have slipped back into your collectivist phase...ogsmile The capitalist price model, as you know well, reflects what people will pay, NOT what it costs to produce. :huh: In the same way as the wages paid reflect what people will work for..... As you pointed out yourself in a previous post, only 1 in 10 applicants were getting hired....that suggests that there is plenty of competition which would indicate the wage structure is correct......:popcorn:
 

Mike King

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Here's another custom that dosen't make sense. Yes, we tip servers who we know are making far less than actual minimum wage. But, we also tip our hair stylist someone we also see on a regular basis who is usually earning at least the minimum wage before tips. Yet, not many of us tip our music teachers or other experts like karate instructors with every lesson.. Because we assume the high price paid for lessons covers the cost for deliverables weekly. An annual holiday gift is more the norm for those folks. Ski lessons fall in to that high price upfront category like music or karate lessons. But, we don't tip the latter... because it is frequent?? Yet we tip hair stylists... paid more than min wage.... also frequent..

Brings us back to why tip the instructor but not the rental shop person or liftee?
All of the music teachers I was associated with, including my wife, were self employed. They received 100% of the lesson fee. I don't tip my massage therapist as he is self employed. If I get a massage at a place where the therapist is an employee, I will tip.

Mike
 

raytseng

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SF Bay Area
Here's another custom that dosen't make sense. Yes, we tip servers who we know are making far less than actual minimum wage. But, we also tip our hair stylist someone we also see on a regular basis who is usually earning at least the minimum wage before tips. Yet, not many of us tip our music teachers or other experts like karate instructors with every lesson.. Because we assume the high price paid for lessons covers the cost for deliverables weekly. An annual holiday gift is more the norm for those folks. Ski lessons fall in to that high price upfront category like music or karate lessons. But, we don't tip the latter... because it is frequent?? Yet we tip hair stylists... paid more than min wage.... also frequent..

Brings us back to why tip the instructor but not the rental shop person or liftee?

There is no sense or reason to customs, that's why it's custom. It is not because of any reasons or assumptions. It is completely arbitrary, but after awhile it becomes ingrained and the economics and payment model has shifted to expect it; so it cannot be broken out. It is a bit chicken and the egg, no reason for the first one; but once you have it, then chickens beget eggs which beget chickens. So the reason you tip is because of the custom itself, not because of real reason or logic or rules.
Even among servers, you tip at a Pizza Hut, but you don't at McDonald or BurgerKing, even though they fit the exact same model. If you say well that's counter service versus table service, you tip at Starbucks but not at McDonalds. There is no reason except the custom itself.
 

crgildart

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Ah CRG, you were doing so well but now you have slipped back into your collectivist phase...ogsmile The capitalist price model, as you know well, reflects what people will pay, NOT what it costs to produce. :huh: In the same way as the wages paid reflect what people will work for..... As you pointed out yourself in a previous post, only 1 in 10 applicants were getting hired....that suggests that there is plenty of competition which would indicate the wage structure is correct......:popcorn:

1 in 10 was my experience back in the 80s when wages were decent. NYC said 9 out of 10 were getting hired when they signed up more recently. The fact that so many are lining up to work, just for the perks alone and hardly any guaranteed income, proves we're both right. But, that doesn't address whether or not the customer should subsidize the low wages offered by the resort.. If so many are working for the peanuts the resort offers why should we be impacting that model externally? If we stop contributing to the cancer of client and instructor gouging perhaps the market of labor will gain more bargaining power as suppliers (instructors) leave that market.
 

at_nyc

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If we stop contributing to the cancer of client and instructor gouging perhaps the market of labor will gain more bargaining power as suppliers (instructors) leave that market.
teaching is a heavily experience based type of work. Music teacher or ski instructors only get good after some years of teaching.

Just because plenty are willing to teach doesn't make them good teachers.

Clearly, SOME mountain could care less about throwing an instructor jacket on a 18 year old. Where does that leave the lesson paying public?
 
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crgildart

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Even among servers, you tip at a Pizza Hut, but you don't at McDonald or BurgerKing, even though they fit the exact same model. If you say well that's counter service versus table service, you tip at Starbucks but not at McDonalds. There is no reason except the custom itself.
Fast food employees get min wage or higher. Table servers at restaurants do not. Delivery drivers??? Pretty sure I would tip both a delivery from McDonalds (some markets have tested delivery service) the same as I would tip a delivery from Pizza Hit. They earn min wage but I don't think their trans comp really covers what their own vehicle expenses end up being in the long run.
 

ScotsSkier

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1 in 10 was my experience back in the 80s when wages were decent. NYC said 9 out of 10 were getting hired when they signed up more recently. The fact that so many are lining up to work, just for the perks alone and hardly any guaranteed income, proves we're both right. But, that doesn't address whether or not the customer should subsidize the low wages offered by the resort.. If so many are working for the peanuts the resort offers why should we be impacting that model externally? If we stop contributing to the cancer of client and instructor gouging perhaps the market of labor will gain more bargaining power as suppliers (instructors) leave that market.

yes. or perhaps the resort operators will realize that they can just increase the lesson price further and make it a very high end exclusive niche product and still make as much money with fewer people. Bear in mind that reducing lesson cost/increasing wages means you then have to push much harder to increase volume significantly and you are also taking on more risk as you need to invest in having a larger pool of higher paid instructors hanging on the shelf ready to go. If it was such a simple way to increase revenues, begs the question why it does not seem to be tried much.....comes back to my original hypothesis - strange though it may seem to many people here - who are of course the <1%- there is just not that much unsatisfied demand out there for lessons...
 

ScotsSkier

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Fast food employees get min wage or higher. Table servers at restaurants do not. Delivery drivers??? Pretty sure I would tip both a delivery from McDonalds (some markets have tested delivery service) the same as I would tip a delivery from Pizza Hit. They earn min wage but I don't think their trans comp really covers what their own vehicle expenses end up being in the long run.

not necessarily true - depends on the State
 

mdf

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the price model should reflect what the cost of goods is plus reasonable profit.

Ah CRG, you were doing so well but now you have slipped back into your collectivist phase...ogsmile

Actually, that is not collectivist. That is the medieval European doctrine of the "fair price." Held sway, at least in theory, for a long time.
Partly driven by the church (well, that part might be collectivist) and partly driven by the landed aristocracy keeping those upstart merchants down.
 

TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
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This is the problem for me. Crazy prices and then being guilted into tipping a bunch more. I'm not the entity that is (perhaps arguably) underpaying instructors, so why should I be the entity expected to take up the slack?

I would love to take a one day lesson once a year when I go to Jackson Hole, but my pain point is $500 "all in". Since that's never going to happen, I just don't even spend any time thinking about it.

I'm here to tell you that you can ski with me for $175/day in an advanced/expert group lesson. There will never be more than 5 people in that lesson and the average number is usually closer to 3. I have been doing this full time for 13 seasons and am very good at it. I have 28 seasons as a pass holder at the resort and know exactly where to ski on any given day for the best conditions for the people who I'm working with. With a $20 tip, you are "all in" for under $200 for 6 hrs. I think that's a great deal. If you don't agree... Feel free to come to JH and not take a lesson. Did I forget to mention that my groups don't wait in lift lines? What is that worth? There must be value somewhere, because my dance card is constantly full of returning clients who want more time with me. I can't tell you how many people tell me that the day they spent with me was their best day skiing ever! No Joke... For $500 all in you could have two great days and still give me a tip that would make me go out of my way to ski with you whenever you wanted.
 

TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
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Since I got started, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I get paid OK from the resort. Better than the average in the industry I would say based on talking with pros from other areas and what I see here. It is enough to keep me working. As someone who has employed hundreds of people in my business, I wish I could make 1/3 of the margin on my employees that my employer makes on me. Knowing that, I still choose to do the work because I love doing it. From the customer side of the equation... I work very hard to be a great skier and effective instructor. The fact that I have 13 full time seasons and still train an average of one day a week makes me an out lier. If the public wants career instructors like me who take it seriously, they need to be willing to tip on top of the lesson cost under the current business model or we will move on to other things and not continue teaching. That being said, I don't want your pity tip. I want my guests to tip me because their expectations were exceeded and they had an outstanding day. Early in my career I didn't make great tips. I used to drop hints and make jokes. I was never quite comfortable doing it and realized that I wanted to be better than that What made the tips start flowing was doing a better job and acting like a professional. Tips aren't required, but I want them and expect them if your expectations were met. I do need them under the current model if I am going to continue to pursue snowsports instruction as a "career" rather than a hobby. I worked for years in the restaurant industry and there is nothing I hate more than the auto-grat. I earn my tips from people who want to give them to me. If you didn't like your lesson, don't tip me. I will ski with you if assigned to, but I won't go out of my way to work with you again and we will both be happy. If the lesson had value to you tip me what you feel is appropriate. Right now the "average" seems to be $20/person in a full or 1/2 day group lesson and $100/day in an all day private lesson. These days I do a bit better than the average and I have a lot of repeat business.
 

Tom K.

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I'm here to tell you that you can ski with me for $175/day in an advanced/expert group lesson. There will never be more than 5 people in that lesson and the average number is usually closer to 3.

Awesome! In. See you next season, late January. Stoked!
 
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DavidSkis

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Early in my career I didn't make great tips. I used to drop hints and make jokes. I was never quite comfortable doing it and realized that I wanted to be better than that What made the tips start flowing was doing a better job and acting like a professional....I earn my tips from people who want to give them to me. If you didn't like your lesson, don't tip me. I will ski with you if assigned to, but I won't go out of my way to work with you again and we will both be happy. If the lesson had value to you tip me what you feel is appropriate.
It is awesome that you can make a lot of money in tips. A couple of questions:

How did you create a culture of tipping among clients? As we've seen in this thread, many people don't even know tipping is reasonable on top of the exhorbitant private lesson rates. Something must have changed in your case. Is it that you have so many client requests that you have simply filtered out the non-tippers?

If a client was happy with the lesson, but otherwise unaware of tipping culture, how would they know to tip? If they don't tip are they just not a priority for you for repeat lessons?
 

Monique

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^^

An instructor friend of mine, when skiing with new people, says that he "casually" tells a story in which not-tipping features prominently as a not-good thing. But that would be extremely hard to execute, I think - I haven't seen it in action.
 

TPJ

Like PBJ, but not as ubiquitous!
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Jackson, WY
^^

An instructor friend of mine, when skiing with new people, says that he "casually" tells a story in which not-tipping features prominently as a not-good thing. But that would be extremely hard to execute, I think - I haven't seen it in action.

This is the kind of thing I decided I wasn't comfortable doing. It feels unprofessional and I'd like to think I'm better than that. It also didn't work very well. A better version, which I don't use anymore, was when asked about the off season was to say that I use my tip money to finance a cool trip.
 

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