• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,324
Location
The Bull City
What's weird?

You have to pay tax as a ski instructor, or as a music teacher. But as a ski instructor, your tax takes out of your $10/lesson base pay. As a music teacher, you get your tax taken out at say, a $20/lesson base pay. Who gets to keep more take home pay?

If music teachers get to take home $10/lesson AFTER tax and overhead, it's significantly better than ski instructors, who're getting paid $10/lesson and still have to pay tax and overhead from that $10/lesson.


Umm, the resort pays the overhead and administrative costs right down to your ski pass. When I was an instructor any additional overhead/expense was a sunk cost because I would have already been at the place skiing during my free time even if I didn't work there.

Music studio or music store is akin to the ski resort in terms of overhead and who pays that cost as well as administrative costs. As for free lance.. when you can teach skiing out of your house or show up at your studen't house to use their lifts your argument will hold water.. or snow..
 

LKLA

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
1,428
Not true. You are required to have a permit to guide (or conduct any commercial activity) on US national forest and BLM land, even if you have an office that is located on private land. Case in point: Aspen Expeditions, the photography tours conducted by Anderson Ranch, or even taking photographs of activities on USFS land for commercial purposes (witness Chris Davenport's attempts to make and sell a film of his 14'ers ski descents).

Mike

I see. So it seems to be specific to business that takes place on US National Forest or Bureau of Land Management property.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
@LKLA said - If you are aware of the economic realities of the situation - in this case that your ski instructor receives only a fraction of what you are paying for the lesson - then you are likely to feel some emotion around the reality and likely want to acknowledge it in some way (thanking the instructor, tipping them,...writing a glowing recommendation for them,...).

Okay, sure, but that's just ... well, yeah. There are a lot of situations in which I honestly feel guilty for my relative wealth and privilege. That doesn't mean my ski instructor (or whoever) is doing anything to provoke it! Capitalism is complicated.
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
because I would have already been at the place skiing during my free time even if I didn't work there
That maybe the case for you personally. But not always true for many instructors.

So the overhead is the gas and time, especially when you show up for line up and don't get any lessons. Or be there for 4 hrs and only got 1 lesson.

Other overheads: wear and tear on the skis and boots. Some career instructor told me he'll go through a pair of skis in one season. That's another $4-500? Even though you get your season pass for free.
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
Instructor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Posts
1,036
Location
Snowmass
@LKLA said - If you are aware of the economic realities of the situation - in this case that your ski instructor receives only a fraction of what you are paying for the lesson - then you are likely to feel some emotion around the reality and likely want to acknowledge it in some way (thanking the instructor, tipping them,...writing a glowing recommendation for them,...).

Okay, sure, but that's just ... well, yeah. There are a lot of situations in which I honestly feel guilty for my relative wealth and privilege. That doesn't mean my ski instructor (or whoever) is doing anything to provoke it! Capitalism is complicated.

I agree with you. Although I do not expect a tip as an instructor, I always tip as a student.
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,150
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
As always in these threads the "pay instructors more/charge people less for lessons" theme - which to make any economic sense would require a huge increase in numbers of people taking lessons - is based upon the notion that somehow the great mass of the general public has an unquenchable thirst for taking lessons and improving their skiiing. I see little to no evidence of these unicorns! The majority of the skiing public are quite happy just skiing around and enjoying themselves at their own level - unless these unicorns are hiding out somewhere......
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,324
Location
The Bull City
That maybe the case for you personally. But not always true for many instructors.

So the overhead is the gas and time, especially when you show up for line up and don't get any lessons. Or be there for 4 hrs and only got 1 lesson.

Other overheads: wear and tear on the skis and boots. Some career instructor told me he'll go through a pair of skis in one season. That's another $4-500? Even though you get your season pass for free.
Place I worked all of us got free rental gear... but you were on rental gear hahahahaha!

Seriously though, I would have been at the resort 100 days per season without being paid to be there.. Yes, I would have been there at different times without schedule requirements, but the gas, gear wear, clothing, etc is all a sunk cost for avid skiers... who happen to teach. But, those avid skiers who don't teach might not get it on pro form and have to pay for their pass, ski team coaching, etc..

And for every instructor at a metro area resort, there are five others wanting that job/gig/benefits. Every season only 1 in 5 or 10 of the people who showed up for the dry land training (which they paid for out of their own pockets) got hired. Those of us who did get hired were reimbursed what we paid for that classroom and dry land stuff. Didn't get hired, you ate that cost..
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
The majority of the skiing public are quite happy just skiing around and enjoying themselves at their own level - unless these unicorns are hiding out somewhere......

Hm. I do talk to a lot of people, casually, on the lift, who cite price as a factor. Who knows if that's the only factor, but ...
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
Instructor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Posts
1,036
Location
Snowmass
Place I worked all of us got free rental gear... but you were on rental gear hahahahaha!

Seriously though, I would have been at the resort 100 days per season without being paid to be there.. Yes, I would have been there at different times without schedule requirements, but the gas, gear wear, clothing, etc is all a sunk cost for avid skiers... who happen to teach. But, those avid skiers who don't teach might not get it on pro form and have to pay for their pass, ski team coaching, etc..

You should know that teaching a lesson is very different than free-skiing. You are responsible for the safety of others, dealing with different personalites, taking them to appropriate terrain, facilitating fun and helping them learn. Teaching an all day lesson is hard work even when it is an upper level lesson. Yes, you are outside skiing but that is where the similarities end.
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
And yes, I have been "guilted" - make that intimidated - on more than one occasion by waiters, delivery people, taxi drivers... who felt I did not tip them enough (and I did not tip them because they were unprofessional from the start).
That's precisely my point. Many waiters and delivery person had come to EXPECT tips, rather than earn it. The result is, people who are tipping starts to feel they're doing it out of routine rather than respect.

When I pay for my burger at McDonalds, I don't feel the least bit of "respect" to any of the people who're responsible for making that burger eatable. Nor do I feel the least bit of respect when I add a tip to my restaurant bill. I'm just paying for a portion of my meal that was not included in the menu. (and thankful he/she didn't screw up the order)

But you already paid for your ski lesson. So why do you pay tips on top of that? Respect for an excellent lesson? Or pity for the poor instructor who got paid peanuts?
 
Last edited:

LKLA

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
1,428
@LKLA said - If you are aware of the economic realities of the situation - in this case that your ski instructor receives only a fraction of what you are paying for the lesson - then you are likely to feel some emotion around the reality and likely want to acknowledge it in some way (thanking the instructor, tipping them,...writing a glowing recommendation for them,...).

Okay, sure, but that's just ... well, yeah. There are a lot of situations in which I honestly feel guilty for my relative wealth and privilege. That doesn't mean my ski instructor (or whoever) is doing anything to provoke it! Capitalism is complicated.

No one said instructors or servers or taxi drivers always do something to provoke it. Rather, it is the reality of the situation and being cognizant and aware of it that often leads to people wanting to react to it. Though, there are times when yes, a person does indeed "provoke" it, unfortunately for both sides.

Tipping has nothing to do with capitalism. Many countries are as capitalist as the US and do not depend nearly as much on tipping. When I travel to China or Cuba or Venezuela people there welcome and depend on tips even more than people in the US, yet those countries are far from capitalist societies.

It has everything to do with the folks who are on the winning side of the equation (ski operators, restaurant owners,taxi medallion companies....you get the point) not wanting to change the structure as it largely benefits them.
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
And for every instructor at a metro area resort, there are five others wanting that job/gig/benefits. Every season only 1 in 5 or 10 of the people who showed up for the dry land training (which they paid for out of their own pockets) got hired. Those of us who did get hired were reimbursed what we paid for that classroom and dry land stuff. Didn't get hired, you ate that cost..
I was at a metro area resort (mountain, not "resort").

We don't get reimbursed for the dry land training. That's a sunk cost. (though returning instructors don't have to do it again)

And 9 out of 10 of the people who show up for the training got hired!
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Tipping has nothing to do with capitalism. Many countries are as capitalist as the US and do not depend nearly as much on tipping. When I travel to China or Cuba or Venezuela people there welcome and depend on tips even more than people in the US, yet those countries are far from capitalist societies.

My point is that there is always inequity, and I'd be surprised if the only time you feel guilty for relative wealth disparity is when it comes to thinking about tipping.

If you can afford to ski and you can afford to take lessons at one of these mega resorts, you are already in a rarified group of people.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,324
Location
The Bull City
I was at a metro area resort (mountain, not "resort").

We don't get reimbursed for the dry land training. That's a sunk cost. (though returning instructors don't have to do it again)

And 9 out of 10 of the people who show up for the training got hired!

That must be what @HardDaysNight was referring to when they said the bar for skiing ability wasn't that high anymore..

Low pay and turnover is higher now. I guess I should also mention we got pretty much the same hourly wage in 1982 that I hear folks get today. I got $10/hr to start, $15 for privates... $20 if I was requested.. I think they charged about $40/hour for a private.. Was way better back then for sure.

Not going to put your kids though college teaching full time. But, get a gig at a destination with housing allowance and it can be fun and comfortable financially. Other than that I see it as a hobby for those who enjoy doing it just for the sake of doing it or other benefits, intangibles, etc..
 

LKLA

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
1,428
My point is that there is always inequity, and I'd be surprised if the only time you feel guilty for relative wealth disparity is when it comes to thinking about tipping.

If you can afford to ski and you can afford to take lessons at one of these mega resorts, you are already in a rarified group of people.

Monique, you seem to be attributing comments to people that are simply not true. I, for one, NEVER said that I only feel guilty "for relative wealth disparity is when it comes to thinking about tipping". Please point out where I made - or even insinuated - such a statement. I don't believe anyone has made such a comment here.

The matter we are discussing here is not my net worth or weather I take ski lessons at mega resorts or at the local hill down the road. The issue is how to get people, such as ski instructors, to be part of a more equitable and fair compensation dynamic, one that is less dependent on tips and more in-line with the costs of a ski lessons.
 
Last edited:

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
Pass Pulled
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Posts
646
Not going to put your kids though college teaching full time. But, get a gig at a destination with housing allowance and it can be fun and comfortable financially. Other than that I see it as a hobby for those who enjoy doing it just for the sake of doing it or other benefits, intangibles, etc..
But, but, but...

If that's the kind of caliber of people making up ski instructors rank, basically mostly non-career instructors, what quality of instructions do you get?
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
Skier
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,215
Location
Boston Suburbs
I wish tipping did not exist. But...
Let's face it -- until the culture of tipping in the US changes, folk who take ski lessons should seriously consider that a tip is part of the product.

A decent tip is part of the price.
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
Instructor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Posts
1,036
Location
Snowmass
But, but, but...

If that's the kind of caliber of people making up ski instructors rank, basically mostly non-career instructors, what quality of instructions do you get?

I can only speak for the resorts where I have worked. Breckenridge and Snowmass. Many of the part time people were full time instructors at some point and now have other careers but still teach. Many are Level 2 or 3. Other instructors are retired people who have lots of time to ski and train, so they are also quality instructors. Some are newer instructors who are dedicated to learning and becoming better instructors.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Monique, you seem to be attributing comments to people that are simply not true. I, for one, NEVER said that I only feel guilty "for relative wealth disparity is when it comes to thinking about tipping". Please point out where I made - or even insinuated - such a statement. I don't believe anyone has made such a comment here.

The matter we are discussing here is not my net worth or weather I take ski lessons at mega resorts or at the local hill down the road. The issue is how to get people, such as ski instructors, to be part of a more equitable and fair compensation dynamic, one that is less dependent on tips and more in-line with the costs of a ski lessons.

The construction "I'd be surprised if ..." means that though you have not stated it, I suspect it to be the case. So I don't have to point to it.

I thought you were talking about feeling guilted into tipping. As my experience is that instructors do NOT guilt their clients into tipping, and you pretty much agreed with that while stating that people in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT service industries had attempted to guilt you into tipping, I presumed that there must be some internal motivation going on, and I theorized upon that. My mistake. Could you explain, then, why you feel guilted into tipping ski instructors?

In point of fact, the thread was NOT about getting people to be part of a more equitable compensation dynamic. It simply asked how much you tip. If you're going to digress, I don't see why I can't.
 

Scruffy

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Posts
2,429
Location
Upstate NY
Yeah. There's not much money in teaching lessons without all the improvements that a ski resort provides. I'm not saying it's right that they jack up prices so high while leaving instructors poorly paid, but they do provide a lot of added value without which you would not be teaching.

The Euro and Japanese places have on hill competition because, I gather, instructors teach on land that's been improved by ... someone. Is that really the free market? Being forced to allow instructors to teach on land you've improved?

I can't even believe I'm making this argument. It's not where my heart lies. But it's an honest question.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, for Euro, esp. France, it's more a cultural based thing that has affected the laws regarding the ability to ski instruct/guide at various mountains. In France, the government cares about and administers mountain guide certifications; in the US, our government doesn't give two hoots about PSIA. So laws in Euro protect what the gov. there cares about--here the laws protect what our gov cares about--big business.
 

Sponsor

Top