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Tipping the skis. Ah yes, where to start?

Doby Man

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@Nancy Hummel makes a good point in terms of there being a huge difference between what we communicate to the people we teach or coach vs the scale of detail involved with the academic perspective of ski technique and skill development that I think a lot of us like to delve into. As a race coach or instructor, the more you know, the less you have to say on the side of the hill. Getting someone to at least challenge one or two basic fundamental aspects of their current technique is plenty for one session. If you try to affect too much, you will not get very far. As well, when I am skiing personally, all I think about is my center of mass and my base of support. In other words, my momentum (direction + speed = vector) and my feet/skis (platform management for tipping and pressure). That’s pretty much it. When we try to find the path of coaching movements that actually bypasses the intellectual screening that adult learners seem to need to so eagerly apply, development can happen more naturally and in packages of movement that come with “preset” timing that can be learned from drill mastery. We do not want to be “adult learners” but, instead, we want to dumb things down and replicate the youth learning process … doing drills while thinking about the cutie in homeroom.

Some misconception I will read about tipping, in regards to advanced technical freeskiing, is that it stops, starts, slows and delays in transition which is not true at all. Though, not in this thread. @Mike King provides a great description. Their tracks are proof that they tip or “roll” right through transition. A good technical skier will have a “flat base” in their tracks shorter than the length of the ski itself. Transition, when defined by the state of tipping rather than pressure, only lasts about 1/10 of a second. That is not where a stop, start or delay of tipping occurs. The delay in tipping occurs at the change in tipping direction at apex in turn phase two. Once we achieve our peak in tipping angles, that is where we hold it or, dealy/slow return tipping, until we decide we want to end the turn. Following apex, or turn phase 2 - 2.5, is where the “flattening”, or reverse in tipping direction, initiates. The longer we keep a flat ski in transition, the more we turn a round turn into a “Z turn” and removes our ability for flow and turn shape speed control. Because tipping and pressure work together to produce edging, managing constant ski pressure and weighted transitions are a key aspect from removing that flat spot in the turn.

My view of good technical skiing is skiing “from” the feet which means that the feet is where the DIRT of the turn comes from and emanates up through the kinetic chain thus producing and timing our fundamental movements. It is a tipping centric view of skiing where ski tipping and complimentary ski base pressure control with our inertia against the ground produces a “mechanical output” from the ski of ground force reaction that we use to power and time the five fundamental movements of separation in the three planes of movement (flexion, extension, rotation, angulation, inclination). Steering (tipping) the skis outward from the CoM produces extension (plantar flexion) and inclination in turn phase one. Steering the skis (BoS) inward to the CoM produces flexion (dorsiflexion) and angulation in phase three. The ski turning itself is what we use, ideally, to produce most of our skeletal rotation. … and, again, all explained through the relationship between the CoM and the BoS. When the five fundamental movements are direct inputs, they must be funded by muscular effort and self timed by the skier. When they become outputs from tipping, they are effortless and systemically timed which is so much easier both mentally and physically. It is the key to intuitive skiing where we “give into” the forces of skiing rather than working so hard to create them. If you are on the hill and thinking about separate elements of individual motor patterns such as duration, rate and timing for flexion, extension, rotation, angulation and inclination, you are probably skiing from the top down and need an aspirin.

As an example, my inside leg shortening is an automated result of the ski mechanized geometry of equal tipping and using ground force reaction to power flexion of the inside leg. For others, tipping is a result of lifting/shortening the inside leg which requires muscular effort and skier intent management of the rate of movement and its timing and is top-down skiing due to the downward path of that kinesthetic directive. When we use tipping as the start of all our kinesthetic directives, our flow of DIRT emanates in the same upward direction and allows the physical constraints of our kinetic chain to provide that natural path of movement. Sending directives up and down the chain makes flow difficult. Becoming an expert skier can be seen as a process of turning a high number of inputs and a low number of outputs into a low number of inputs and a high number of outputs which is also a popular description of the efficiency in any discipline.

There are some who feel that the feet and ankles are weak. That is because they think all the muscles for the feet and ankles are in ... the feet and ankles so they must be “tiny”. No they are not. They are all in the calf. Calf muscles are very strong and are one of the few muscles that indicate strength in their length rather than width. You may may notice the typical anatomy of the calves of the typical WC racer: long and slender. They are also movements that are produced “directly” against our equipment, boots/skis, which provides immediate and powerful leverage that the rest of the body does not have. Yes, the feet and ankles are powerful tools for those who pursue this technical direction.
 

James

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I think that is so right. In fluid turns, it's not like we go to the flat of our skis, then stop, then initiate tipping to the other edge. Tipping starts at the release of the previous turn. What are you thinking, in terms of body movement or action, to tip, I.e., to start that release towards flattening, then getting into the other edge?
I'm always mazed at how many intermediate skiers can't sideslip. If you can't sideslip, you can't effectively release. It's not just the feet that need to tip, the body has to move downhill a bit. It's not much, but it's a world away. Most don't want to enter that world, so to start a turn they are always going to do something odd, which is much more work but safer.

Young kids can get very creative doing this and since they're very flexible do things adults can't. Like sit back nearly on the tails and somehow get the tips to turn across the hill. It would take pages to try to figure out what they do to stay away from the scary part of going downhill. They figure out a way of turning downhill without going downhill first.

People avoid going downhill. In downhill skiing that's a problem. Even advanced skiers have their pitch where they have to talk themselves into it.
 

markojp

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James

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Different transitions.

Lots of pivoting and sliding.
IMG_5689.JPG

Ted Ligety, Adelboden gs, 2012 Ron LeMaster

Not much pivoting if any.
IMG_5692.JPG

Lindsey Vonn, Aspen gs 2011 Ron LeMaster

Not much time.
IMG_5693.JPG

Marlies Schild, Aspen sl 2011 Ron Lemaster
 

Kurt

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Different transitions.

Lots of pivoting and sliding.
View attachment 60931
Ted Ligety, Adelboden gs, 2012 Ron LeMaster

Not much pivoting if any.
View attachment 60933
Lindsey Vonn, Aspen gs 2011 Ron LeMaster

Not much time.
View attachment 60934
Marlies Schild, Aspen sl 2011 Ron Lemaster
Although they aren't thinking about it, I'll bet kinesthetic feedback has a lot of big toe to little toe and visa versa. Kind of analogous to a golf swing, what's your turn thought? Too many thoughts and the swing, and turn, fall apart. My last trainer gave a few that I like, but what resonates differs for everyone.
 
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karlo

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I hear there are examiners in PSIA-Eastern. There's also the Boyd's in NH, Brian Smith in NY (some of the year), Mermer Bleakesley also in NY, and folk from the clinics that you've attended that resonated with you. And that guy Josh.

I reached out to the Boyd's arc2arc a couple of times. Never got a reply. Now that website doesn't even work. I found an email address for Brian. Looks like he's sometimes at Gore? That's very convenient for me. From what I've read, Mermer deals with fear. Fear isn't my problem. Then, that Josh guy that keeps popping up. Gotta check that out.

As an example, my inside leg shortening is an automated result of the ski mechanized geometry of equal tipping and using ground force reaction to power flexion of the inside leg. For others, tipping is a result of lifting/shortening the inside leg which requires muscular effort and skier intent management of the rate of movement and its timing and is top-down skiing due to the downward path of that kinesthetic directive. When we use tipping as the start of all our kinesthetic directives, our flow of DIRT emanates in the same upward direction and allows the physical constraints of our kinetic chain to provide that natural path of movement. Sending directives up and down the chain makes flow difficult. Becoming an expert skier can be seen as a process of turning a high number of inputs and a low number of outputs into a low number of inputs and a high number of outputs which is also a popular description of the efficiency in any discipline.

So, what is tipping the result of for you, in terms of what you are thinking? I think it sounds like flexing the new inside leg, allowing "ground force reaction to power flexion of the inside leg" I am guessing that means keeping that leg supple; correct me if I am wrong. But, what initiates the ground force?
 

James

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I reached out to the Boyd's arc2arc a couple of times. Never got a reply. Now that website doesn't even work. I found an email address for Brian. Looks like he's sometimes at Gore? That's very convenient for me. From what I've read, Mermer deals with fear. Fear isn't my problem. Then, that Josh guy that keeps popping up. Gotta check that out.



So, what is tipping the result of for you, in terms of what you are thinking? I think it sounds like flexing the new inside leg, allowing "ground force reaction to power flexion of the inside leg" I am guessing that means keeping that leg supple; correct me if I am wrong. But, what initiates the ground force?
Mermer is pretty hilarious actually.

Look, make some very slow parallel turns on very flat terrain. You'll discover some things.
 
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karlo

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make some very slow parallel turns on very flat terrain. You'll discover some things.

Been doing that, by thinking about leg flex and extension to tip. In this thread, I’m wondering what others are thinking to initiate and perform tipping. Leg flex/extension, and feet/ankle first have been mentioned. And then there’s the ground force reaction mentioned by @Doby Man.
 

Chris V.

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Been doing that, by thinking about leg flex and extension to tip. In this thread, I’m wondering what others are thinking to initiate and perform tipping. Leg flex/extension, and feet/ankle first have been mentioned. And then there’s the ground force reaction mentioned by @Doby Man.

In most circumstances, I prefer relaxation, leading to flexion, of the old outside leg. Last year, one faction of the trainers strongly advocated the alternative, which led to some problems IMHO.

Tipping to create the new turn is certainly a natural consequence, if you just let it happen.
 

Mike King

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That is a common misconception. She is an excellent teacher of all levels. She wrote a book about fear, but it's not all she does. She's near the top of my list.
Mermer is a multiple term demo team member and has been a selector multiple times for the demo team. She is a Stratton Mountain School product and one of the best instructors I've been exposed to.

Mike
 
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karlo

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Sure, but that's not likely sufficient to generate dynamic medium or short radius turns.

I am inclined to agree. Kind of like the tennis player moving feet. Need to be proactive to be quick.

Could it be that we think of doing the movement that we tend to forget? So, if as @Doby Man says, flex of leg is to him autonomic, then he never has to think about it. On the other hand, when my tipping initiation (release of previous turn) is messed up, it’s pretty much all the time that I’ve forgotten to flex that old inside leg
 

James

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So you're going straight down a gentle slope with flat skis...
You invert one foot, ie tip it to the little toe side, or "raise the arch".

What happens depends on what you let happen or unconsciously do with the rest of your body. It's perfectly reasonable to do the foot invert and still go straight. I think(!) To me it would be very unnatural to keep going straight.

So what happens?
 
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karlo

karlo

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So you're going straight down a gentle slope with flat skis...
You invert one foot, ie tip it to the little toe side, or "raise the arch".

What happens depends on what you let happen or unconsciously do with the rest of your body. It's perfectly reasonable to do the foot invert and still go straight. I think(!) To me it would be very unnatural to keep going straight.

So what happens?

I assume you mean to roll the other foot as well, raising its little toe. Then, I think that’s a tipping for railroad tracks. It also means fast skiing if used on steeper slopes. I don’t consider myself a fast skier. What do you do on steeper slopes? What are you thinking to actively tip? Roll the feet?
 

Josh Matta

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I assume you mean to roll the other foot as well, raising its little toe. Then, I think that’s a tipping for railroad tracks. It also means fast skiing if used on steeper slopes. I don’t consider myself a fast skier. What do you do on steeper slopes? What are you thinking to actively tip? Roll the feet?

well pure tipping movements are going to lead to faster skiing on steeper slopes. If I want to go slower I just keep the edges lower and use more rotary to get the skis across the hill more. This is still done in a very round line. The thing is even pivot slips can be made easier with foot tipping, and inside ski lightening.



With that said if you eventual goal is PSIA L3 you are going to have to learn how to embrace some speed for task like Performance short and Railroad tracks on blue terrain. Usually if everything else is happening right, going faster is actually easier.

Outside of the scope of the PSIA something I use for speed control in faster turns is stivoting. This is hard move to accomplish for many though, and it can be very hidden to a untrained outside eye.
 

LiquidFeet

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Mermer is a multiple term demo team member and has been a selector multiple times for the demo team. She is a Stratton Mountain School product and one of the best instructors I've been exposed to. Mike

I just skied a week with Mermer at a PSIA event for instructors (ProJam). It was quite a privilege to have five days of intensely technical instruction from her. She began her ski career as a high level racer, then advanced to the top levels of PSIA. Her technical knowledge base is extremely high and broad. Her people skills (she's a hoot!) are unparalleled. And she's an independent thinker; you can't predict what she's going to suggest next. She's not a by-the-book teacher in any sense. Surprises abound.
 
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James

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I assume you mean to roll the other foot as well, raising its little toe. Then, I think that’s a tipping for railroad tracks. It also means fast skiing if used on steeper slopes. I don’t consider myself a fast skier. What do you do on steeper slopes? What are you thinking to actively tip? Roll the feet?
You're jumping ahead instead of actually doing the activity and thinking about it. Nothing was said about steeps or a "way to ski". Play with this stuff on flat traversing trails that are boring. There is much to be learned on those even while travelling with the herd.

"I assume you mean to roll the other foot as well, raising its little toe."
No, I would have said that. You do one foot and see the effect and or notice what else your body does or has to do.
 

Kneale Brownson

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As James says, just go try lifting an arch on some gentle terrain with no traffic. See what that action results in. Let it happen.
 
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