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Après Skier

Amateur Skier & Professional Curmudgeon
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182
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You wouldn't insult a Euro instructor by tipping.

I always tip the ski guides/instructors in Europe. They put up a little perfunctory fight Madame, c’est pas nécessaire... and I simply explain this is my way of thanking them for their exceptional kindness and expertise. Life is expensive in the Savoie and trust me, nobody ever feels insulted to have a little extra cash.

I once went for Aprés in a bar where the ESF instructors hang and struck-up some wine-infused conversation. One of the instructors told me how he wished he had more American clients citing our friendliness and générosité as the reasons why Americans were his preferred clients.
 
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François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
My best guess is that the obvious answer is capitalism...where the country's industry and trade are controlled by private entities for profit. The most efficient way to make a profit is to reduce cost (instructor wages) and increase price (price you pay). Instructor wages are based on supply and demand. Supply is based on how many people would like a job as a ski instructor; when supply goes up, wages goes down. If wages went up, the supply would increase (I mean...how many skiers would be jumping on that job train if they could make $100k/year teaching the sport they love most?).

Price is based on maximizing profit, based on what people are willing to pay. As long as people keep paying $1000 for a private day lesson...that's where the prices will stay.
You are half right.
Hmmm... I love the Free Market.

Ski instruction is a Free Market, if you consider the student as your employer - which I do.

Ski instruction is a one-on-one relationship.

My employer merely facilitates the connection just like Uber or Lyft.

I also love Capitalism which allows free men to combine their funds to build such things as ski resorts which, have you noticed, are more prevalent in Capitalist nations?

Please don't ever tip if it is financially imprudent for your circumstances. Don't tip out of guilt. Don't tip because it's a "cultural norm." Only tip if you financially can and if the lesson exceeded your expectations so much so that you are motivated to express your satisfaction with your hard earned money.
Dream on. This is the other half. It is not a free-market capitalist economy in North America; the ski resorts have a monopoly (o.k. oligarchy) on the jobs. You cannot go and compete with the resorts ski school. They will argue, it's their land (some is, but some is public land), their lift tickets, etc., but you pay for your lift ticket and your client's lift ticket to use their land and their lifts. They will argue, well you wouldn't expect to open up a hot dog stand to compete with the resort restaurant. They are very smart at protecting their cash cow.

Bottom line is that lesson prices are high and ski instructor wages are low in North America because the resorts control the game, and don't allow free competition for ski instruction.
 

raytseng

Making fresh tracks
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SF Bay Area
Consensus etiquette in the US seem to be to tip ski instructors if they do a good job. At the same time, if you don't tip, my understanding is you don't get thrown out of the ski resort. I would also guess ski resort management would frown upon an instructor confronting a non-tipper.

This is where the rubber meets the road. My correction is that there is a consensus among ski instructors that they should get a tip.
But that consensus doesn't translate to general public (even if you filter out the International guests for customary reasons), otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist.

Before everyone bit my head off 5 months ago for all the wrong reasons, this was the gist of my post to try to bring in the some real statistics from Reality. Hopefully everyone cooled down a bit since then.

I'd like to see a survey of instructor's answers from two perspectives:

How often do YOU actually get a tip from a guest in a US ski lesson, regardless of amount? (percentage 0-100% of guests)
and breakdown by class type:
Group- Beg:
Group- Int+:
Private:
Coach/Program:

And to do the statistical correction since you all are of course exceptional instructors above the average:
How often do you estimate ALL US ski instructors get a tip from their guest?
Group-Beg:
Group- Int+:
Private:
Coach/Program:

My gut feeling is that the real gutfeeling estimates in this survey are going to be low, nowhere near a majority especially in group, and my guess is it's going to range from 30-50% for honest answers. So it is nowhere near a "consensus" such as sitdown food service (which I guess pretty much near 90%-100%?) or for a haircut (which I guess is maybe 60%+). It is more like tips for counterservice / barista which I also don't think a majority of people tip and around 25% or less.

But somehow people twisted my point to mean I am promoting not tipping, which is NOT THE CASE.
If you don't acknowledge what is the real actual current behavior, there is no way you will be able to progress to find ways to nudge it towards your desired behavior.
 
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Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
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Hey Ray, do we know each other? Did you or do you still teach? I think you should start a separate thread just before the start of the season. Personally I think asking for estimates of other instructors tips will be speculative and hearsay, at best and, thus, would not be reliable. But I really like your idea of asking the first question (I added some stuff and some examples):

How often do YOU actually get a monetary tip from a guest in a US ski lesson for the 2020-2021 season through April 30, regardless of amount? (percentage 0-100% of guests)

For each day or part of a day that you teach please answer the following:
(List every day or part of a day that you taught, even if you received no tips that day).

No. of Students
Date in Lesson No. of Tips Amnt. of Tips
Group- Beg: 12/18/20 10 2 $20, $10
Group- Int+:
Expert:
Assigned Private:
Request Private: 12/19/20 1 1 $100
Race Coach:
Kids' Weekly Program:
Adult Weekly Program: (I am not sure that any truly exist.)

My guess is that we would have to PM you our logs on a monthly basis, but I would be willing to keep a log if you are willing to collect the logs and do the tally.

Then the competition is on!

If you are still or became a member in PSIA you could likely publish it in 32 Degrees but they may not publish it because the results may in fact be too dismal and might discourage membership! Or you could approach PSIA-W and see if they are interested. If so, they may even host it.

The results won't affect my teaching plans, but I would really be interested in the results.

Of course, I really liked the idea of a PSIA Members-Only forum where we might share useful teaching and other info, but sadly that forum was taken down and when I frequented it, very little info of interest to me was posted. Your questionnare would have been great there, but likely wouldn't have drawn much participation due to the few people who used it.
 

mdf

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That is a good point. A lot of ski areas struggle to even be profitable and without big profit centers like ski school wouldn't make it.
The idea that instructors should get almost all of the cost of a lesson is naive. Yes, there should be a mark-up, probably even a large mark-up, to cover overhead and profit. But the current state of affairs is out of balance.
 

markojp

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This would be kind of awesome if a mountain implemented an "Uber-like" system. Instructors work as contracted workers (rather than employees) and make their own hours. An app is implemented where you search for instructors available in your area, while adding in what level you're looking for (kind of like size of car), the instructor lists their credentials (kind of like model of car), then you choose your instructor. Price of lesson as well as the instructor's cut is based on demand...during peak days/hours price goes up.

(Details still TBD)

What would be nicer is if all fully certified instructors could operate independently.
 

Tricia

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If i weren't paying an arm and a leg for the lesson, I'd have no problem with tips. Essentially, you get charged as if you've hired a lawyer, then you're supposed to treat them like a food server or your barber. Pick one or the other. I've certainly tipped for all my lessons in the last thirty years, but the cost is a big reason I rarely take lessons.

I don't belong to that rarefied group that thinks $100 per person at a fine restaurant makes sense, either, let alone even more.
Sadly, this is the place we find ourselves. The resorts charge stupid money for a lesson, then they pay the person actually teaching the lesson a tiny portion of the money and hope that the tip adjusts for the income.

Thankfully there are a few resorts that value their instructors (Aspen included), but many are still behind a sad curve.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
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Hmmmm....so I’m one of those guys that do this as a fun job. At least it started out that way, heck I might have 2 or 3 paychecks gathering dust before I thought to cash them. Because I managed to figure out a way to have a career that both let me retire young enough and with financial stability, I didn’t need The ski school pay check to buy groceries. In fact I made enough in tips to pay for my gas up the mountain, breakfast lunch and an occasional beer at the end of the day. Teaching skiing was the first job I ever had that I received tips. In a word I was in heaven, doing what I loved to do with other people who loved being there too and we got to ski with and meet awesome people from all over the world!

Fast forward a few years and I found myself on the supervisory side, (they must have been desperate) where they pay me for each hour of the long, and they are long days like 10 hours often, sometimes 7 days a week. It’s a decent salary for the 5-6 months a year that I do it. I do a lot of the hiring and training of new staff and while it’s true that we get college kids and others who need the money, and of course the tips, I don’t see that as the driving force as to why they are on the mountain.

What I do see is smiling faces with a passion for our sport out enjoying life in the mountains. Those smiles are infectious (even more than COVID). I also see, and with some regularity, the most passionate instructors raking in the most money, either from tips or private requests (an automatic bump up of $10-20/hour above their base rate).

It seems ludicrous to suggest that any of us do this for the money, while at the same time many of us have figured out how to do it for a living, even if part time. I would offer this to any one wanting to instruct, do it for the smiles, yours mine and the guests. The money will follow...

Okay, that’s my sappy advice, :beercheer:
 

karlo

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This why I taught gun safety and different shooting disciplines. It was mostly volunteer work and never received tips, but always received calls to teach. I did it for the love of sharing the knowledge of the sport. I kept current, so I could get the deep discounts on firearms and related equipment.

I hire two instructors a year; one for me and one for my wife. We call them and find out when they are free and they book the lessons for us. Sometimes its a half day each, others its a full day. They are great people/instructors and I feel the best at Breck. We know their pay is crap, and the resort takes the money. 1/2 day is 700ish and full day is 900ish per person. They have both been instructors for 25+ years and are friends as much as they are hired instructors. We stay in contact thru out the year, send birthday gifts and bring a few pounds of fresh home made bacon each time we come up and visit with them while we are in town. I have always tipped those in the restaurant industry and really don't do much tipping outside of that.

At the 10-20% rate, we would be looking at $70-140 or more per person. YIKES! Ive never thought about tipping my instructors and now this thread is getting me to question what we have been doing. Ive never tipped coaches for any sport or class in the past.
In your case, don’t worry about tipping.
 

Muleski

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Personal choice, and I have always found that it's a clear expression of how much you value the service, teaching, coaching and overall experience.

Our adult kids grew up in seasonal race programs, weekend programs, before they reached their ski academy years, both starting at age five. Seasonal deals. Each coach had a contact group of about 6 kids. And they were paid VERY little. These were weekend jobs, BTW. They did get some nice benefits that extended to their families; discounts on everything. My wife would organize a gift from the other parents in our kids' groups every year. Everybody was credited with the thank you, though some never contributed. One for all, all for one. Gift was most often something they could use or wear, along with a check.

In addition, my wife and I would make a cash gift, and the amount varied based on the job done. In some years, the year end tip was over $1K. In others, more like $100. Maybe we knew too much about the system and we wanted to keep the good weekend coaches coaching. Hard to find and retain them. Some made a huge difference to our kids' experiences.

We have never been on the client side of things, as in taking lessons as adults. I have a six decade background that includes a lot of race coaching. My wife has taught over the years, quite a bit. When our kids were in their ski academy years, they lived at home in our ski house, and my wife taught a few days a week. Mostly very young ones. Sometimes she received a tip, often things like a small gift card to the local coffee shop. Nice thought, and appreciated. Obviously, she was not making a living doing this. She was actually helping the ski area with mid week staffing.

Our kids are in their mid-thirties. Both work in the ski business, as do their significant others. Two are what I would say are very high level alpine race coaches. They work with very few kids, year round, and the parents are both demanding and appreciative of a job well done. Gifts and tips are very genuinely given, and much appreciated. Not expected at all. They are very, very well paid, at this point in their careers, and work hard. So hard. The tips are not turning their overall compensation into a living wage. They are past that. It's not comparable to instructor pay.

One of them is an alpine coach, and PSIA. Does NOT teach or coach full time these days. Fills in. Works in the ski business, in a ski town. "Real" job. Does ski an hour or so most every day. Very outgoing. She inherited a gig from an older friend a few years ago. She takes some vacation around holiday weeks, or keeps up with her work odd hours, etc. and skis with the same family of four when they vacation each year. Some days it could be the parents, somedays the kids....now teens through college age. Some days the family.

They know the mountains, they know their way around. They all seem to really like her, and she does know how to teach and give them pointers. They know how to ski, well. Plus she just rips. And knows where to avoid crowds and find snow. A great deal of local knowledge. Plus, no lift lines.

This is the only time of year that she wears an instructor's uniform. This family is very well to do. I believe that her tip last season was $5K for about 10 days on snow. This coming season, COVID willing, she hopes to do December, and a spring break week. Would she do it without the tip? Don't know. I doubt it. But she does enjoy them, and was introduced on the basis that they are great people, fun, and super generous. Dad has helped her in a few business deals and introductions. She joins them for dinner a few times during these weeks, arranges to have their skis tuned as needed, and helps with some equipment issues. They usually have lunch as a group, etc.

It's unusual, but everybody involved buys into it. No big deal. Nobody feels awkward. And the ski school needs bodies, all that they can find, that week. She knows the leadership. It's all good. This family has done this for 20+ years, and I would imagine that the full timers there have their own vacation week repeat regulars.

I'll save commenting on tipping on heli trips {in detail} for another post. My brother has had the same guides and pilots for about six years in a row, since he discovered Iceland in May. He appreciates hard work, and being genuine. So he tips...everybody. No so much with other heli operators. He has over two million vertical feet with CMH. He loves Iceland.

My kids are generous tippers, because as they say working summers when most of your income was tips changes your perspective. If you're cheap and don't tip, it's because you never worked like a dog to earn tips. That's their theory. And yes, many businesses can shift this labor cost right to the customer. My son earned about $12/hour in the summer, and was quickly working enough hours to be into overtime. He needed a lot of certifications and training to do this job. The sales pitch from his boss was that he could earn tips with his particular operation. Some days it was $30. Some rainy days it was close to 0. Some busy weekend days it was $300 plus. Some year end seasonal gift/tips were $500+, before heading back to college. Great job. Boss also let him go ski in a couple of raining blocks. When he started to coach for the full summer, it was quite a pay cut!

Those summer earnings actually did let him exist in his first year of full time coaching. Yes, young coaches in expensive ski towns with few lodging options really do have it tough.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
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It seems ludicrous to suggest that any of us do this for the money, while at the same time many of us have figured out how to do it for a living, even if part time. I would offer this to any one wanting to instruct, do it for the smiles, yours mine and the guests. The money will follow...

The thing is the resorts do it for money and a lot of them charge an arm and a leg for a lesson then pay the instructor very very little (this applies to the resorts in the USA). This is much less the case on smaller, independent resorts.
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
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Beaverton OR USA
Hmmmm....so I’m one of those guys that do this as a fun job. At least it started out that way, heck I might have 2 or 3 paychecks gathering dust before I thought to cash them. Because I managed to figure out a way to have a career that both let me retire young enough and with financial stability, I didn’t need The ski school pay check to buy groceries. In fact I made enough in tips to pay for my gas up the mountain, breakfast lunch and an occasional beer at the end of the day. Teaching skiing was the first job I ever had that I received tips. In a word I was in heaven, doing what I loved to do with other people who loved being there too and we got to ski with and meet awesome people from all over the world!

Fast forward a few years and I found myself on the supervisory side, (they must have been desperate) where they pay me for each hour of the long, and they are long days like 10 hours often, sometimes 7 days a week. It’s a decent salary for the 5-6 months a year that I do it. I do a lot of the hiring and training of new staff and while it’s true that we get college kids and others who need the money, and of course the tips, I don’t see that as the driving force as to why they are on the mountain.

What I do see is smiling faces with a passion for our sport out enjoying life in the mountains. Those smiles are infectious (even more than COVID). I also see, and with some regularity, the most passionate instructors raking in the most money, either from tips or private requests (an automatic bump up of $10-20/hour above their base rate).

It seems ludicrous to suggest that any of us do this for the money, while at the same time many of us have figured out how to do it for a living, even if part time. I would offer this to any one wanting to instruct, do it for the smiles, yours mine and the guests. The money will follow...

Okay, that’s my sappy advice, :beercheer:


Please tell me what ski area this is at. If all of the instructors are like this, then that's where I want to take lessons.
 

markojp

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Pchew, you're around Hood, correct? If you'd like, PM me. There are some wonderful instructors at Meadows if you need some names.
 

pchewn

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Pchew, you're around Hood, correct? If you'd like, PM me. There are some wonderful instructors at Meadows if you need some names.


I found a great instructor at Mt Hood Meadows and was looking forward to a repeat lesson when COVID did its shutdown. (See here: https://www.pugski.com/threads/great-experiences-with-ski-lessons.19187/post-450475 ) Oh yeah: I gave a great tip because I received a great lesson at a great price.

My comments to @HDSkiing were less about finding an instructor and more about complimenting the attitude and vibe he described at his ski school.
 
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KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
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My comments to @HDSkiing were less about finding an instructor and more about complimenting the attitude and vibe he described at his ski school.

I have a small stone bridge in lower Manhattan for you. Built around 1869. Immaculate condition.
Great buy. Deal of the century. :duck: :roflmao:
 

oldschoolskier

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You are half right.

Dream on. This is the other half. It is not a free-market capitalist economy in North America; the ski resorts have a monopoly (o.k. oligarchy) on the jobs. You cannot go and compete with the resorts ski school. They will argue, it's their land (some is, but some is public land), their lift tickets, etc., but you pay for your lift ticket and your client's lift ticket to use their land and their lifts. They will argue, well you wouldn't expect to open up a hot dog stand to compete with the resort restaurant. They are very smart at protecting their cash cow.

Bottom line is that lesson prices are high and ski instructor wages are low in North America because the resorts control the game, and don't allow free competition for ski instruction.
This !!!
 

oldschoolskier

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The Uber model is a good concept, however, In practically the only two winners are the user and Uber, drivers actually make very little. The worst part they bi-pass the controls (lic fees / insurance / police checks) that taxis and limos face for the sake of appearing to be a better system and cost savings.

IMHO an Uber like Ski Instructor system might reduce cost to the skier, but further reduce the potential income of same said instructor as any costs covered by the resort would now be the instructors responsibility.

Ultimately until the “hobby” instructors (not commenting on quality) stop filling (flooding) in for professionals (this is my job), ski instruction is going to be a low paying job.
 

markojp

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FWIW, I do believe that there ARE finally some upward push in wages in our region. Inspite of all the 'hobbyists flooding the market', there's a relative finite source of really good instructors, and there are never enough. There are a few areas that seem to be attracting and retaining new, younger staff, which is great! Anyhow....
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
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My comments to @HDSkiing were less about finding an instructor and more about complimenting the attitude and vibe he described at his ski school.

Thanks @pchewn I’m in Santa Fe New Mexico, stop in anytime.

And thanks for “getting it.” Sometimes it seems that we, typically more seasoned skiers, get so caught up in the minutiae of MA, this or that piece of equipment, or all too often our own egos, we forget the child-like sensation of sliding on snow that Never-Evers, novices and others still feel. And at its most fundamental that’s all Skiing is; sliding on snow having fun!

The USA, more than our European friends, places a premium on centering the experience around the guest. My job, and that of our staff is to do what we can to enhance that experience and hopefully open more of the mountains to that person that maybe only can get out a week a year, or a few weekends.

This thread started off on the topic of tipping, then kinda morphed into compensation, both good topics. But somewhere along the way it seemed that the magic about “sliding on snow” got left behind.

When I hire an instructor I honestly don’t care how well he or she can rip, we will improve their skiing regardless. I look for that ability to be able to connect their passion with some one new or Inexperienced to the sport. Not everyone we hire will do that well. And I have found that sometimes relatively inexperienced staff do a better job than our full certs in the “people skills” section.

One of our edicts here is that “We Teach Fun, If Skiing Better Is The Result, That’s Ok Too.”

I’m also up front about what they will make, particularly as a first year with no certs, which by the way is above the minimum wage and competitive to the area. It takes many seasons, especially if you do not do this full time, to build a book of business (private requests) to really see those upper level earnings, a big part of which is the tips.

Even tho I do this as a profession now, I try not to take myself too seriously. I mean come on, all we are doing is sliding around on frozen water, if that can’t make you smile, then what will?
 
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