Tipping Ski Instructors?

[Wasatchman]

I remember that a group of high end restaurants in NYC tried to eliminate tips and raise food prices to compensate. The restaurants concern was that on a busy days waitstaff were making way more than the chefs/kitchen staff which didn't seem fair.

But the tipping culture is so ingrained that it didn't work out. Their business dropped due to the perceived higher menu prices and they had to go back to the tipping scheme.

The tipping system does create scenarios as noted above at high end places. And waitstaff at high end restaurants make way more than at Denny's even though the staff at Denny's could be just as capable.

I'll also conclude that the US is not as "free market" as a lot think. In NJ, a lot of toll booth operators make in excess of $100,000 a year thanks to very powerful unions. The poor bastards working the till at a fast food joint (which I suspect is actually a much more difficult job) make minimum wage. I'd also argue that social programs top up a lot of people on minimum wage and hence their wage is not purely free market. It almost amounts to corporate welfare in a sense.

I've concluded that our economy is not as free market as some may argue, and like life in general, there are plenty of unfair compensation outcomes.

Edit: My guess is it's not a good ratio of good ski instructors to mediocre in the US these days. In general, skiing caters to a wealthier demographic. So a lot of experienced skiers may balk at the compensation system of instructing. I'm guessing a lot that do teach are doing it for the love of the job or financially are able to do so. I don't know what the right answer is, but I do think prices for ski lessons at a lot of US resorts is very high and seems unfair to instructors relative to their pay.

 

[Seldomski]

I have taken many lessons in the US and for many years did not tip. I did not tip for a few reasons.

#1: I didn't know it was customary. Part of this has to do with education. Instructors did not bring it up, and other students did not tip. So, I was ignorant.

#2: Another issue is the overall lesson cost and the assumption that the instructor was well-compensated based on this up front cost. What the instructor gets paid hourly is not well communicated, and I assume this is on purpose. Some resorts view their ski schools as major sources of revenue. Personally, I disagree with this mindset and think the school should actually operate at a loss to bring more people to the resort and improve the overall skill level and thus safety of people on the hill. The benefits of the school go beyond the balance sheet of the school on its own.

#3: I will also say that the idea of tipping the instructor in general is weird. I have never tipped a teacher before. Didn't I already pay you? If I took lessons for sky diving, flying an aircraft, tennis, scuba diving, golf, personal trainer, or some other similar 1 day/few hour paid guide/lesson, I don't generally tip. Is this a thing? Sometimes I do tip for these activities, but it would be because the service provided by a particular person is unusually good.

I do tip ski instructors now. The size of the tip is based on whether its a group or not and if I had fun and/or learned something. I do think the business model should not rely on tipping to shore up wages and help retain instructors. People can still tip for extraordinary service. Isn't the request private basically a guaranteed tip for the instructor?

 

[Mike King]

I'm not belittling people for relying on tips nor publicly shaming or spewing vitriol (though thanks for those characterisations).

No? What was the meaning of this then?

And on the topic of a job being worthy of a living wage. I'd love a "job" as a romantic poet, wandering the fells, smoking some opium, idyllic summer house parties by the shores of Geneva. But my creative genius and contribution to society in the form of my canon does not seem to be rewarded by the cold hard cash I receive for my works. Should everyone who reads one of my verses/doggerel feel obliged to tip me to ensure I can maintain my lifestyle?

OK so this is slightly facetious ( but obviously tangentially relevant to skiing) and in fact the "successful" poets were ones who lived off family money or the largesse of patrons ( for whom having a poet in residence was a status symbol). It's an ongoing question around arts funding more generally though today and largesse continues to play a not insignificant role - are ski instructors struggling but talented artists?

 

[fatbob]

No? What was the meaning of this then?

It was an esoteric wandering of my mind to illustrate that not everyone gets compensated adequately for a job that has value nor that everyone gets to demand a living for a job they choose. And that not all vocations bring reward without luck and patronage - the meme of the struggling artist. The reference to the romantic poets was a bit of self deprecation and a bit of a tie to skiing and not intended to be a direct reference to the over-hedonistic over-sexed world of the ski instructor (as I realise Aspen Extreme is a work of fiction possibly on a par with Don Juan).

Plus you seem to have a personal problem with me but are prepared to like someone who is saying almost exactly what I was saying where we started this debate?????

#3: I will also say that the idea of tipping the instructor in general is weird. I have never tipped a teacher before. Didn't I already pay you? If I took lessons for sky diving, flying an aircraft, tennis, scuba diving, golf, personal trainer, or some other similar 1 day/few hour paid guide/lesson, I don't generally tip. Is this a thing?

 

[Mike King]

It was an esoteric wandering of my mind to illustrate that not everyone gets compensated adequately for a job that has value. And that not all vocations bring reward without luck and patronage - the meme of the struggling artist. The reference to the romantic poets was a bit of self deprecation and a bit of a tie to skiing and not intended to be a direct reference to the over-hedonistic over-sexed world of the ski instructor (as I realise Aspen Extreme is a work of fiction possibly on a par with Don Juan).

Perhaps a wandering of the mind. But the way you framed it seems to suggest that ski instructors are no more than lost souls who imbibe in illegal substances and party. Sure, that describes some, but many work quite hard on their craft. It is no small feat to become a full certified instructor anywhere. Many work hard not just to become certified, but also to be successful in their profession. We do have instructors in Aspen who make more than $50k in wages in 5 months of teaching, but that's because they deliver a product that their clients want -- and because they work hard at it at a ski area that has the best pay in the industry.

Should the top instructors in the world be able to make more? I think so. And I'm sure some do. They find ways to innovate, offering video instruction, films, etc. Or they hold camps. They promote themselves. And find clients who are looking for what they are offering and willing to pay for it. In other words, they are not just ski instructors, but business men who understand the nature of the business, innovate, market, and tailor their product to the market.

The economic model of ski instruction in the US and Canada creates a monopsony in the labor market and reduces the bargaining power of the instructors. Aspen is a special case where the owners take a much longer view toward the business. But ski instructors in North America are at a disadvantage in obtaining the compensation the market might otherwise allow to arise.

So, be careful with your characterizations of folk and the analogies you use. You might think they are clever and fun, but they cut deeply with many who pursue teaching for the pecuniary and (especially) the non pecuniary income it provides.

Mike



Mike

 

[pchewn]

I tip my instructor about as much as I can tip my ankles inside my ski boots.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/do-you-tip-your-ankle-s-inside-your-boots.20035/post-492103

 

[LiquidFeet]

....are ski instructors struggling but talented artists?

Some are.

 

[fatbob]

.

So, be careful with your characterizations of folk and the analogies you use. You might think they are clever and fun, but they cut deeply with many who pursue teaching for the pecuniary and (especially) the non pecuniary income it provides.

Mike

I can wholeheartedly agree with your post and I apologise for the somewhat "literal" way it came across. Sorry it is just a flaw of mine that I am never entirely serious nor entirely frivolous - I blame my culture

 

[jimtransition]

I'm not belittling people for relying on tips nor publicly shaming or spewing vitriol (though thanks for those characterisations). I'm just reacting to some on the posts on here that implied "foreign people are mean" and "if you're not my top tipper I don't want to teach you again". That is transference of a market problem that exists between workers and their employers onto those who have no involvement in that market.

Here we go - you yourself are admitting it's a hobby job for some. And that's part of your problem - you have a mixed labour pool of those who really need the money and those for whom it's a nice or even trivial top up to their pension or retirement funds etc.

And I do challenge the assertion that tipping an instructor is a cultural norm in the US. Even on this thread we've had people who worked as instructors and certaininly US citizen customers expressing some surprise and others sayng appreciated not expected. That doesn't suggest widely understood norm to me. When did it become a norm?

Perhaps not taking it personally if you are an instructor and objectively evaluating it as if were a service you'd be buying helps us admit at heart we are basically saying similar things.

As in - it's all a bit of a mess, the unclear expectations around tipping muddy that further and that customers and I expect quite a lot of instructors would rather have a clear all in price (with more of that going to the service provider not 75%+ to the booking agent)

I definitely agree with you on many of your points, personally I don't work in the US, unless guests fly me there, and I make a good living without tips.

However, it's not the US instructors fault that they don't get paid well and need tips to survive, and you seem to blame them, maybe you don't, but it came across that way.

Anyway, let's just all hope we get a ski season, currently having my first summer off skis since 2008

 

[markojp]

Some are.

If he only knew.

 

[fatbob]

However, it's not the US instructors fault that they don't get paid well and need tips to survive, and you seem to blame them, maybe you don't, but it came across that way.

I don't blame them but if they want to put me (or more likely other unaware innocents) down for not tipping because they "need" or "depend" on that money then I think they can do more to help themselves. As in what is a usual reaction to a monopsonistic buyer? One in which the suppliers do more to organise themselves to negotiate a fairer price?

 

[Quandary]

This really isn't a standard yet, so its not expected. Contrast with a food server where if you don't tip in the US you've broken etiquette.

Really just tip based on your financial means and your experience or your improvement. if you feel you got a 20% better experience than you expected(e.g. a surprise private, or something clicked for you) than tip $20 or some amount that feels right to you. If you feel it's too much it's too much, if you feel it's too little it's too little.

Even if you just tip a $5 its still appreciated. if you're tipping with coins though, maybe that crosses the line.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Do you have any idea how instructors are screwed in the ski industry? This is particularly true at the big resorts. Ski lessons cost a fortune and the better long time instructors get paid $17/$18 an hour. If they are good you should be tipping them period. Of course this excludes the 60% to 70% (mostly part-timers) of the the people hired to instruct that can barely ski themselves much less teach someone else to ski. When you have a real pro you'll know it.

 

[fatbob]

^ I suspect he knows exactly how screwed they are and the contradiction of demanding uniform tips while dissing 70% of your fellow pros.

 

[mister moose]

Instructor wages are based on supply and demand. Supply is based on how many people would like a job as a ski instructor; when supply goes up, wages goes down. If wages went up, the supply would increase (I mean...how many skiers would be jumping on that job train if they could make $100k/year teaching the sport they love most?).

Price is based on maximizing profit, based on what people are willing to pay. As long as people keep paying $1000 for a private day lesson...that's where the prices will stay.

Yes. Furthermore, part of a ski school lesson is getting to cut the lift line, something only the resort can offer. Ski instruction is a minority of jobs where the wage bears almost no relationship to the product retail rate.

If I took lessons for sky diving, flying an aircraft, tennis, scuba diving, golf, personal trainer, or some other similar 1 day/few hour paid guide/lesson, ...

These are all examples of fun jobs that don't pay much. Add in aspiring actor, stand up comedian, resort town musician, Poparazzi photographer, nanny, yacht crew. You'll earn far more (and have way less fun) as a CPA.

Many work hard not just to become certified, but also to be successful in their profession. We do have instructors in Aspen who make more than $50k in wages in 5 months of teaching, but that's because they deliver a product that their clients want -- and because they work hard at it at a ski area that has the best pay in the industry.

At the top of any profession the pay is way better. What's not typical is to have the entry level priced so low. See elemmac's post above.

However, it's not the US instructors fault that they don't get paid well and need tips to survive, ...

Actually it is their fault. They are free to find work for more money doing something else, but they as a group choose to work for low wages, which never creates any upward pressure on instructor wages. I'm sure there's a line outside the Ski School door at Aspen to get a job there, but here in the Northeast it's routine to see an ad for "Help Wanted, Ski Instructors - no experience necessary." Enough people answer those ads that wages don't rise, but it is a double edged sword. Their skiing in the jacket is on display. The public's perception of most ski instructors (especially after seeing an ad like that) is a low ski ability level, and that reduces interest in upper level lessons.

 

[Lauren]

My employer merely facilitates the connection just like Uber or Lyft.

This would be kind of awesome if a mountain implemented an "Uber-like" system. Instructors work as contracted workers (rather than employees) and make their own hours. An app is implemented where you search for instructors available in your area, while adding in what level you're looking for (kind of like size of car), the instructor lists their credentials (kind of like model of car), then you choose your instructor. Price of lesson as well as the instructor's cut is based on demand...during peak days/hours price goes up.

(Details still TBD)

 

[Tim Hodgson]

mister moose and elemmac: I guess about this time, it would be interesting to wonder what would happen, say due to a no-longer pandemic disease, where instructors from the Southern Hemisphere who are on Summer break, are not allowed due to travel restrictions to instruct at North American resorts.

If this happens, supply will decrease and demand will increase, so any of you who were ever considering instructing may want to stay tuned because this may be the season to explore instructing. . .

elemmac: I used to be an assistant kayak white water instructor as well as a raft guide. These sports, like skiing, involve a risk of injury or even death. With the existing laws in the US (I understand that waivers of liability are much more enforceable in Canada), the cost of insurance in the US makes solo instruction too risky and cost prohibitive for an Uber-type business model.

Also, next time you are at a resort, try to count the number of employees you see during the day and estimate their labor cost, try to estimate the cost of construction and maintenance of the lifts, buildings, roads, parking lots and other capital improvements and speculate about the cost of labor for all the night workers, including maids and janitors, and snow removal employees, and grooming operators and their snow removal equipment and the Piston Bully's necessary to groom the slopes all night. So, to the extent that the ski school is a profit center (which it may not actually be), you will have some idea of the millions of dollars it takes to own and operate a resort. Because of that, it is my understanding that most resorts do not allow non-employee instructors on their mountains. They need and deserve every penny to pay the bills.

Notwithstanding that, every instructor I know treats the relationship between student and instructor as one-on-one and gives out his or her card so that you can know when the instructor is working and can reserve the instructor for the day(s) you are there. So, not quite an Uber app business model, but as close as it can reasonably be given the realities of the resort business.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Most of us here do tip instructors and others for good service but the wage argument wears thin when many of us have had crappy jobs. I should tip the shredder guys, give the farmstand and extra $5 for a few ears of corn, the cahier at the store who sells me a 6 pack and chips. Of course this will piss people off but we live in or near cities, deal with traffic pollution viruses crime and get paid better than some in rural areas. We all make our own trade offs to a certain extent so there is no easy answer to how we should distribute wealth.

 

[Slim]

I do think @fatbob has a point that there probably are not that many ski instructors who are not able to find any other way to make a living.
This, as opposed to many waiters, cleaners, taxi drivers, etc, who have no other, better paid, options to earn a living.

 

[markojp]

I can safely say that you would want me as your instructor/coach, but not your waiter. I did it for 2 weeks in college. I really sucked at it.

 

[Wasatchman]

mister moose and elemmac: So, to the extent that the ski school is a profit center (which it may not actually be), you will have some idea of the millions of dollars it takes to own and operate a resort.

That is a good point. A lot of ski areas struggle to even be profitable and without big profit centers like ski school wouldn't make it.

Consensus etiquette in the US seem to be to tip ski instructors if they do a good job. At the same time, if you don't tip, my understanding is you don't get thrown out of the ski resort. I would also guess ski resort management would frown upon an instructor confronting a non-tipper.