...and Mad River Glen had the support of the former owner to get the coop gooing. As I remember it, she publicly supported the idea (which gave it credibility) and gave them a fairly long window to organize and get a purchase offer to her.
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Mid-Atlantic The Neverending Timberline, WV: Info, Weather, and Stoke
...and Mad River Glen had the support of the former owner to get the coop gooing. As I remember it, she publicly supported the idea (which gave it credibility) and gave them a fairly long window to organize and get a purchase offer to her.
Correct. From https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/madriverglen.php "On September 27, 1994, the Mad River Glen Cooperative was registered as an entity in the State of Vermont. After nearly a quarter of a century of ownership, Betsy Pratt entered into an agreement to sell the ski area to the cooperative in December of 1995, even buying a few shares herself and providing startup funds.
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In April of 1998, the coop sold its 1,667th share, raising enough money to own the ski area outright"
I believe I also mentioned previously the failed attempt to take Magic Mountain co-op. There is a decent summary at https://www.powder.com/stories/magic-mountain-changes-ownership/ and an executive summary at http://www.mountainonline.com/commie-pinko-mountain-resort-mad-river-glen-vermont-skiing-co-op/ which also mentions the Mountain Rider's Alliance ( http://www.mountainridersalliance.com/ ) as a possible resource. One note is that the Magic co-op would just have been an operating company, not a land-owning co-op; the MRG co-op owns the land.
"In 2012, Jim Sullivan, the mountain’s manager and part owner, created a cooperative called the Magic Partnership and sold 333 shares at $3,000 each. One problem: Sullivan didn’t register the co-op in each of the states the purchasers resided in, running afoul of blue-sky laws that regulate securities offerings. Sullivan deemed the error too costly and time consuming to fix, so he transformed equity shares into memberships in the Magic Faithful Club, which gives members discounts on season passes and lift tickets."
So at both MRG and Magic, the current owners were involved in and funded the start-up, and the ski areas were operating more than Timberline. Magic requires snowmaking and is only open Friday-Monday, other than powder days; in 2014, the new management listed season income and operating expenses both at $950k.
So it took ~3.3 million to buy the place (MRG) from the previous owner. And it took two years to do so. With a cooperative previous owner. And presumably no complicated liens on the area.
IIRC, no major work/improvements were needed during the transition and early years of the co-op.
I know the single was replaced a few years ago - not sure what was retained from the old lift to cut expenses.
Do the co-op supporters really think Fred and Tracy will support this? And that a co-op can raise the money and manage the complicated/extensive renovation? The MRG co-op was continuing an existing operating model (though I know a Betsy had some ideas/actions that rankled a few), not turning around an area that has been run to the ground. From what I’ve learned from previous workers, there is very little infrastructure that can be salvaged.
IIRC, no major work/improvements were needed during the transition and early years of the co-op.
I know the single was replaced a few years ago - not sure what was retained from the old lift to cut expenses.
Do the co-op supporters really think Fred and Tracy will support this? And that a co-op can raise the money and manage the complicated/extensive renovation? The MRG co-op was continuing an existing operating model (though I know a Betsy had some ideas/actions that rankled a few), not turning around an area that has been run to the ground. From what I’ve learned from previous workers, there is very little infrastructure that can be salvaged.
Another big difference is receivership. If the resort, not just the utility, ends up in receivership, then it will be the receiver calling the shots. In most states, receivers have considerable authority, including the ability to sell the business and its holdings. The receiver’s main priority will be to clear debt and free up the title so the resort can be transferred to a new owner committed to reconstituting the resort, thereby assuring positive tax income in the future, not only from the resort but rentals, and real property on the mountain.
Why do you think the resort will get put into receivership? Is there any indication the resort owes back taxes? It is getting tough to tell what entity has been charged with what. And even if the resort owes back taxes to state/feds, receivership should only come after liens on accounts/assets. As much as I hate the scums running the place, I’m not real happy with government taking over a private entity.
Utility is a different thing entirely, so receivership is appropriate there.
And from what I’ve seen, criminal charges seem appropriate.
If you read the court papers posted on Timber-lies, it’s a combination of concerns: money owed to the CVPSD, back property and hotel taxes, concerns about other debts. However, the $400,000 owed to the CVPSD that seems to be the driving concern. The county wants all these debts squared away sooner than later and that can only be accomplished via receivership.
The court papers I read were about putting the utility into receivership. It will then be up to the receiver to get any monies back.
There will be likely further legal action between the receiver/state and the ski area wrt unpaid debts. I suspect that will take a bit. Even if determined by a court to owe the utility x dollars, I believe liens/asset seizure will happen first. And what happens if the resort declares bankruptcy to try to free itself of private debt?
Doesn’t matter what the county wants - they have to follow the law. Neither one of us is a lawyer - and lawyers need to see all the evidence. So, we are both guessing a bit.
But personally, this idea of the state taking over the ski area via receivership seems like wishful thinking to me. I realize you and others been screwed over by them and understand the frustration.
Well the state is running the other ski area in the valley. .
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That skier days per season, not per day
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Note: This is new post versus comment
Given Timberline
WV legal troubles, even if a buyer were found tomorrow, could a sale be possible?
I am not feeling as burned as friends who own multiple resort properties but am still concerned. The resort is an important tax engine for the county and I am hoping the county comes up with an expedient solution to deal with the crisis. Receivership seems to be the best and fastest way out of this mess.
PS These friends are not rich. They simply invested life savings in a dream turned nightmare. Several served their country honorably in the military.
PS These friends are not rich. They simply invested life savings in a dream turned nightmare. Several served their country honorably in the military.
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Tucker Co. won't be able to fix this mess, they don't have the $. The State of WV might be able to help, but do you really want WV to run another ski area in the Valley?
A coop is one of several variants of a "jointly owned" business. Other examples are employee owned businesses and non-profit structures (Green Bay Packers). All of us avid skiers would agree any of these entities would a favorable outcome for Timberline. But none are likely as cited in previous posts.
Another consideration - maybe the primary consideration - is that there are creditors. There have been some comments on Facebook about short term loans the Herz's took out over the last several years. Anyone have more info on these loans/lenders?
So yes lots of time in court coming up, and sure seems like a receiver is likely. But people - a receiver is NOT the government! Receivers are for profit entities or attorneys/law firms that charge fees for their work. Under the supervision of a court they take charge of the business, sometimes operate it, pay off debts, and ultimately sell it or dissolve it.
The court (a Judge) can and will be influenced about what to do with this mess by stakeholders with a vested interest - so yes, Tucker County will have a say in what happens. So will the State, by virtue of it's interest in promoting tourism revenue and taxes. There will be other groups, which hopefully will include homeowner association/groups, who will advocate for the continued operation of the ski resort.
My own opinion is that the resort and infrastructure has enough revenue potential that an entrepreneurial outfit will eventually take it over. Some recent examples of how other small independent resorts have been bought/taken over and evolved (or evolving) into solid business's are Magic Mountain, VT; Greek Peek, NY; Plattekill, NY; Catamount, NY/MA; Blue Knob, PA.
So cross your fingers and get ready for a long wait. I'm guessing this thread will probably reach 100 pages.
Another consideration - maybe the primary consideration - is that there are creditors. There have been some comments on Facebook about short term loans the Herz's took out over the last several years. Anyone have more info on these loans/lenders?
So yes lots of time in court coming up, and sure seems like a receiver is likely. But people - a receiver is NOT the government! Receivers are for profit entities or attorneys/law firms that charge fees for their work. Under the supervision of a court they take charge of the business, sometimes operate it, pay off debts, and ultimately sell it or dissolve it.
The court (a Judge) can and will be influenced about what to do with this mess by stakeholders with a vested interest - so yes, Tucker County will have a say in what happens. So will the State, by virtue of it's interest in promoting tourism revenue and taxes. There will be other groups, which hopefully will include homeowner association/groups, who will advocate for the continued operation of the ski resort.
My own opinion is that the resort and infrastructure has enough revenue potential that an entrepreneurial outfit will eventually take it over. Some recent examples of how other small independent resorts have been bought/taken over and evolved (or evolving) into solid business's are Magic Mountain, VT; Greek Peek, NY; Plattekill, NY; Catamount, NY/MA; Blue Knob, PA.
So cross your fingers and get ready for a long wait. I'm guessing this thread will probably reach 100 pages.
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TS
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employees have still not been paid for last paycheck. a couple paychecks were written but they bounced. w-2's from last year have still not been received.
tslime is again making comments on FB about capitalization, next season and this summer for opening back up. saying "it pays to bet on us opening". I wonder what it will take for fraud charges to be brought....surely there are tons of folks who have been duped to giving money to the resort based on the false advertising.
tslime is again making comments on FB about capitalization, next season and this summer for opening back up. saying "it pays to bet on us opening". I wonder what it will take for fraud charges to be brought....surely there are tons of folks who have been duped to giving money to the resort based on the false advertising.
I had a day off yesterday so I skied Whitetail. Glorious day with new snow and 100% of the resort open. I skied from 930 to 230 and got 31 runs in, spending a good portion of the day skiing the Expert’s Choice fixed grip. People were lined up in the morning buying next year’s Peak Pass. Whitetail delivers the goods! Everything works at the resort, including food services.
I know it is a pipe dream but I wonder if Peak could be convinced to take Timberline over given enough tax incentives and grants. Timberline would be a great addition to their offerings—accessible for early and late season skiing for skiers who mainly ski the Ohio and PA resort. It would also be a good place to focus on ski races and racer development.
I know it is a pipe dream but I wonder if Peak could be convinced to take Timberline over given enough tax incentives and grants. Timberline would be a great addition to their offerings—accessible for early and late season skiing for skiers who mainly ski the Ohio and PA resort. It would also be a good place to focus on ski races and racer development.
The WV Gazette article linked above indicates that the country prosecutor is trying to place the resort, the utility, and the real-estate operation into receivership:
WVGazette said:
To me (and no, I'm not a lawyer), that sounds an awful lot like the kind of activity that can nullify the usual shielding of assets provided by separating them into different corporate entities. If the resort, real estate company and utility all effectively acted as one entity, couldn't that provide a legal impetus for the court to treat them as one entity, particularly with respect to the elevated public duty of the utility spilling over into the related entities?
I would love to see Peak pick up TL. I think TL would fit nicely into their resort portfolio.
Sure @Coach13 that would be nice. With all the pass wars that are going on between epic/ikon/mcp/peak passes here is what I think will happen. Vail will bid and win the contract to operate Canaan Valley Resort then purchase and reopen the lost ski area formerly known as Timberline. The Epic Pass would cover skiing at both mountains. They could change the name to Vail Valley and it would be almost like one big resort. Maybe they have an old gondola laying around to connect the two.
Dream big, if you're going to dream.
Dream big, if you're going to dream.
Agreed. Probably won’t happen even with a smaller conglomerate like Peak, but it would be the best chance for TL to have a chance of normal, stable operations. More likely you will get a small investment group with big dreams and small pockets and the circus will continue under a difference group of clowns.
Epic Valley has a better ring. Or maybe Canaanavail?
Got my redonkulous pass today for the SS.
Got my redonkulous pass today for the SS.
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