Mid-Atlantic The Neverending Timberline, WV: Info, Weather, and Stoke

[RodneyBD]

As your document states, Magic got approval in Jan 2019. They’ve been working on it for 1.5 years now. And you are saying that is prompt?

I don’t know what you mean by work started in the off-season. Spring 2019? Which is a year ago. They were working on it Fall 2019 and Winter 2020.

Magic is cash strapped, Perfects are not. That is the main reason TM is installing two new lifts in 6 months and Magic nearly 1.5 years.

Wrong again. I'll help you with the math. Timberline sale closed in November. If there was a similar Act 250 in WV, Perfect's would have needed a comparable two month time-frame to retain an environmental consulting firm to prep and submit the app. This brings you to January 2020. Then a six month wait for approval, which means everyone would still be waiting to start construction in... July. Which means building in Winter, and potentially delivering... at the end of ski season in 2021. My guess - just a guess of course -is they wouldn't make the case for that kind of timeline and you would be getting on their new lift... November 2022.

Cash isn't relevant in your comparison. The different permitting rules and regs are the hurdles. Having said that, I am like most everyone else damn excited that the Perfect's are taking advantage of the unique regulatory environment in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia and throwing up those lifts as fast as they can.

 

[JohnL]

I once managed to get...well not lost exactly but I ended up with a 15 minute hike back to the Thunderdraft lift

‘Was I leading you? I temper a couple times having to climb back up the bank to Twister. Not sure who I was with one of the times.

I do remember you not avoiding a creek, though...

 

[JohnL]

Wrong again. I'll help you with the math. Timberline sale closed in November. If there was a similar Act 250 in WV, Perfect's would have needed a comparable two month time-frame to retain an environmental consulting firm to prep and submit the app. This brings you to January 2020. Then a six month wait for approval, which means everyone would still be waiting to start construction in... July. Which means building in Winter, and potentially delivering... at the end of ski season in 2021. My guess - just a guess of course -is they wouldn't make the case for that kind of timeline and you would be getting on their new lift... November 2022.

Cash isn't relevant in your comparison. The different permitting rules and regs are the hurdles. Having said that, I am like most everyone else damn excited that the Perfect's are taking advantage of the unique regulatory environment in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia and throwing up those lifts as fast as they can.

From approval, Magic may finish the lift in 15 months, assuming they wouldn’t start in January. From approval, TM looks to finish TWO lifts in 6 months.

Once approved, TM is kicking Magic’s butt on construction. Sure, the approval time is different, but the 6 month environmental delay for Magic is much less than the construction time.

The math is pretty simple, but ....

 

[wgo]

‘Was I leading you? I temper a couple times having to climb back up the bank to Twister. Not sure who I was with one of the times.

I do remember you not avoiding a creek, though...

Nah, you weren't leading me but you are thinking of the correct part of the mountain...as for the creek incident I think I mostly avoided it...

 

[Cameron]

Seems like my gut reaction looking more and more likely. TM will likely be pretty packed most weekends. That $330 number been floating around a lot, at least on poster claimed they got it from FB question.

PN is very close to several cities - 500k does not surprise me. They likely get a lot of weekday and night skiing traffic. The numbers at TM will jump a lot if they increase weekday and extended Holiday traffic (T-Giving, XMass, Winter Break). And consistently have busy weekends beyond a few per season.

I thought the number I saw in one of the stories about Timberline was more along the lines of 250K but you are correct they draw from a number of fairly large cities including Cincinnait, Louisville, Lexington, Dayton, Columbus, and even as far away as Nashville TN. I've even met skiers from Birmingham Alabama that had come up for the weekend. I always thought the large area they draw from, huge snow making capacity, and better terrain made them a great target for acquisition but Vail ended up buying every operation around them with the Peak deal.

 

[x10003q]

PA is north of the Mason-Dixon line though.

I am not sure why this matters. Are Pennsylvanian snowmobilers not allowed into WVA?

 

[dbostedo]

I am not sure why this matters. Are Pennsylvanian snowmobilers not allowed into WVA?

The question was "how many people below the mason dixon even want to have snowmobiles?", and you replied "PA is 8th in snowmobiles". But PA isn't below the Mason-Dixon line, so that doesn't answer the question.

 

[WV RVA Skier]

The truck earlier this week delivered over 40 mount poles to put pole cats on. These posts are wider than the old ones. We had a few in the past at the bottom of the mountain but not many.

 

[The Colonel]

The truck earlier this week delivered over 40 mount poles to put pole cats on. These posts are wider than the old ones. We had a few in the past at the bottom of the mountain but not many.

This is really exciting! Hopefully TM Perfect will have enough new snow towers, refurbished TL snowmaking equipment, and upgrades to minimize having to drag hoses from one trail to another to make snow, thus allowing snow making and snow keeping all over the mountain!

 

[RickH]

They still need a large supply of water. I'm assuming they will replace the pumps.

 

[WV RVA Skier]

They still need a large supply of water. I'm assuming they will replace the pumps.

Just rumors but I've been told they will be doubling the capacity of the pumps. I believe current sources of water are a stream, Blackwater River, 2 ponds and a lake. They will be working hard on the drainage off the mountain as well to be sure they harvest as much as possible. Each has limits but hopefully together they will be sufficient. Once upon a time Timberline made a lot of snow and I don't recall issues with them ever running out so I am optimistic.

 

[Carolinacub]

Snowmaking is super water intensive but from what I have heard the newest equipment is substantially more efficient than the stuff made just 10 years ago. If they are putting in all new equipment or even mostly new equipment I would think that for the same amount of water used in the past they would get much more coverage.

 

[James]

Snowmaking is super water intensive but from what I have heard the newest equipment is substantially more efficient than the stuff made just 10 years ago.

The efficiency comes mainly from reduced compressed air usage. Maybe it wastes a little less water, I don’t know.

VT several years ago offered rebates to turn in old snow guns for new high efficiency units. They use less energy, but can also make more snow in the same time frame. Whether one uses more or less water depends mostly I think on how much snow you make. So with more efficient guns you might actually use more water but make more snow. Or just make more snow in a smaller time frame, which given our wild fluctuations in temperature can be a good thing.

How wind effects these things is another matter.

 

[jimmy]

A few pages back someone mentioned that Ski Patrol would be all volunteer. How does/will that work?

 

[Uncle Louie]

A few pages back someone mentioned that Ski Patrol would be all volunteer. How does/will that work?

Ski Patrol at Perfect North is National Ski Patrol. I'll assume they plan to stay with that.

 

[Johnfmh]

Just rumors but I've been told they will be doubling the capacity of the pumps. I believe current sources of water are a stream, Blackwater River, 2 ponds and a lake. They will be working hard on the drainage off the mountain as well to be sure they harvest as much as possible. Each has limits but hopefully together they will be sufficient. Once upon a time Timberline made a lot of snow and I don't recall issues with them ever running out so I am optimistic.

Water has never been an issue. The issues have related to lack of investment, lack of preventative maintenance, and lack of money to pay the power bills. With higher efficiency equipment combined with cheap energy costs (at least for now), Perfect North is looking to get 100% of terrain open by Christmas. That’s what I heard via the rumor mill.

 

[James]

A few pages back someone mentioned that Ski Patrol would be all volunteer. How does/will that work?

Good question on how you do that 7 days/week. We used to have paid during the week and all volunteer except supervisors on the weekend. You still have to go through the whole testing/training process which is oretty rigorous. You can end up getting some pretty experienced doctors, nurses, paramedics on your staff.

 

[jimmy]

Good question on how you do that 7 days/week. We used to have paid during the week and all volunteer except supervisors on the weekend. You still have to go through the whole testing/training process which is oretty rigorous. You can end up getting some pretty experienced doctors, nurses, paramedics on your staff.

Yes that's really the point of my question. The population in Tucker County WV is about 15% of Windsor County VT and Tucker is about half the area. I think they'll be lucky to staff patrol with Volunteers during the week. Timberline patrol i think used to be a blend of paid and NSP volunteers.

 

[The Colonel]

Yes that's really the point of my question. The population in Tucker County WV is about 15% of Windsor County VT and Tucker is about half the area. I think they'll be lucky to staff patrol with Volunteers during the week. Timberline patrol i think used to be a blend of paid and NSP volunteers.

Surely people in the previous ski patrol probably know what the plan is! I would think that having too few or not thoroughly trained ski patrol would be a major liability insurance Issue, and potentially scare off customers. Everything thing else that PN has undertaken at TLM has been first class; I cannot imaging their not having a first class ski patrol!
The Colonel

 

[Carolinacub]

Not sure what their plan is but for conjecture's sake I'll throw this out.
What I see probably happening is a mix a of paid and volunteer. during the week with much lower skier traffic you can run a small group of paid patrollers and on the weekend when traffic is up the volunteers take over responsibility.
Since there are other ski areas close at hand there is a base of patrollers available. Don't be surprised to see patrollers either leave the other areas to work at TL full time or to split their time between a couple different mountains.
Since TL is doing all these huge upgrades and since the North family has such a good reputation I imagine there will be a fair amount of people in the Ski Patrol world seeking out involvement there.
I know from just our patrol we have a number of people on the volunteer team who volunteer at multiple mountains. There are also people on the paid patrol for us who are volunteers on other mountains and vice versa.
I personally don't see this being a big issue but as they say.
If you rebuild it they will come.

(bonus points if you recognize that almost quote)