Mid-Atlantic The Neverending Timberline, WV: Info, Weather, and Stoke

[Mook21]

... But what will someone be able to pick this up for with all of this going on? Much less than $10M. This is similar to a foreclosure where we are looking at pennies on the dollar.

 

[Ron Taylor]

I wondered when someone might mention Mad River Glen and the format they have as a Co-op.It has been on my mind. I don't know an appropriate price on a share. But to me $1000 to $5000 a share would not seem too unreasonable and cap at 4. I would not hesitate to purchase shares. This reduces the number required to generate a large sum to purchase and rehabilitate the ski mountain, and involve serious minded individuals. Shares at Mad River are $2000 and a max of 4 may be purchased by any individual. The Co-op has an elected board and shareholders have a stake/say/vote in elections and decisions. If there is any opportunity for this to occur, early discussion and perhaps a committee of interested folks should assemble and take names. Word would spread quite quickly, I think hundreds if not thousands of skiers in the mid-atlantic would participate-West Virginia, Virginia, DC, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina, Ohio easily. Then there would be an annual maintenance fee, this fee is a minimum purchase on the mountain. Mad Glen gives an option to buy Mad Money where that $200 can be spent anywhere on the mountain. There are 3000 available shares and only 1800 have been sold to date. 3000x2000=$6,000,000. Let's make a share $3000 that would be $9,000.000. IS IT TIME TO FORM A STAKEHOLDER COMMITTEE?

 

[Mook21]

I would buy into something like that... I always called Timberline “ Smuggs South,” but just as easily could think of as a Mad River South.

 

[Kemperski]

I think y'all must be sipping whiskey ...this ain't MRG or Red, and it's premature to say the least

 

[dbostedo]

Big difference between Timberline and MRG is the housing and homeowners who line the slopes and have some stake in what happens. It's not a place that can get by on the minimal infrastructure of an MRG.

And I don't know that the entire mid-A had enough hard core skiers looking for terrain and minimal grooming like MRG promotes.

 

[Johnfmh]

I think the most likely scenario is for a single investor or a small group of investors to pick it up at a bottom feeder price, make some modest improvements, and try to flip it. The investors will hope to lure enough skiers back to the mountain to convince a bigger fish that the Timberline could draw even more skiers and sell a lot of passes good at numerous resorts.

 

[Johnfmh]

PS The HOAs can barely agree on issies such as resurfacing common roads. I seriously doubt they want to try and collectively run the resort unless its the only option (necessity being the mother of all invention).

 

[crgildart]

I think the most likely scenario is for a single investor or a small group of investors to pick it up at a bottom feeder price, make some modest improvements, and try to flip it. The investors will hope to lure enough skiers back to the mountain to convince a bigger fish that the Timberline could draw even more skiers and sell a lot of passes good at numerous resorts.

Or, Vail buys it and McEverythings the crap out of it perhaps even adding their own slopeside lodging/

 

[Coach13]

Big difference between Timberline and MRG is the housing and homeowners who line the slopes and have some stake in what happens. It's not a place that can get by on the minimal infrastructure of an MRG.

And I don't know that the entire mid-A had enough hard core skiers looking for terrain and minimal grooming like MRG promotes.

Not to mention MRG offers more runs, 2 times the vertical and close to twice the length of ski season. I’d also think MRG is in an area where there are many more skiers to spend their money there than in the Mid-Atlantic. Don’t get me wrong, I’m rooting hard for TL to pick things back up. I just don’t think a comparison to some of these other areas is realistic.

 

[Coach13]

Or, Vail buys it and McEverythings the crap out of it perhaps even adding their own slopeside lodging/

I think Vail buying into TL or anywhere else in the Mid-Atlantic is pie in the sky.

 

[DrJ]

Not to mention MRG offers more runs, 2 times the vertical and close to twice the length of ski season. I’d also think MRG is in an area where there are many more skiers to spend their money there than in the Mid-Atlantic. Don’t get me wrong, I’m rooting hard for TL to pick things back up. I just don’t think a comparison to some of these other areas is realistic.

Mad River Glen was a functioning ski area at the time of the formation of the co-op, as well, and while they continue to operate well, the history is slow improvements over time. They also started with working lifts. Also, for those who have never been, they do groom - all the greens, and at least some of the blues, depending on conditions. From this morning's report: "It is times like this when skiers can see for themselves how much better our groomers can be than places with more snow making. This is true because natural snow generally comes out nicer than man-made due to the fact that there isn't a compressed glacier underneath. Our cats till a little deeper on the natural snow and with our limited uphill capacity they won't get skied off nearly as fast as most ski areas. The greens and blues should be pretty darn nice as our heroes of the night worked diligently to buff out as much as they could overnight and they will certainly tackle a bunch more this evening."

There were attempts to convert Magic to a co-op model, which did not complete. That is at least somewhat closer to the situation at T-line - Magic is snowmaking dependent, and at times had only one working lift. The money, some $700k, seems to have gone into operations and maintenance of the mountain, but it was eventually purchased by a new owner, who has been doing great things with it.

 

[Dr. Bighair]

I do agree this is a whiskey sipping conversation...maybe even shooting. But I don't think a co-op is viable. I Have also heard folks talk about it becoming a private resort like a country club.. that is never going to happen. I don't think a private investor or a group of private investors is out of reach by any means....there have been several that have offered to buy it already. A large corporation I think is less likely.

Either way, the venture would have to be a start up with some demolition cost for the new owners. But I don't think a new lucrative operation is out of reach. Don't underestimate the local growth that is occurring with corridor H, the volume of wealth in the dc area that is at the doorstep now, and the untapped potential of that mountain. It has never really been utilized as a four season resort...bike park could be huge, restraurant/bar, musical festival, kids camps, etc. It could easily be a four season resort under some owners with some business sence and vision.

I would think the purchase of the resort/land is going to be relatively minimal at this point because it is so far run into the ground, hopefully we will find out soon. As far as start up plan, after purchase cost, for the new owners I would think a 20 million dollar budget with priorities being tear down lifts(no the concrete pads are not usable) and install one new high speed to the top and then a modest fixed grip to mid, gut the snowmaking system and install new system that can truly take advantage of the cold climate here and get that mountain near 100% open by Christmas. Just gut the lodge and do a modest remodel that functions and rustic appeal. Hire a local crew to glade the entire mountain...minimal cost while doubling the terrain and offering a skiable product that no one else in the mid-atlantic can.

After the first year/season probably will have to tear down the bunkhouse to deal with the lack of parking situation and then deal with the weekend crowds by limiting ticket sales or increasing price. After money starts coming in and some initial investments are re-cooped start working on some of the southern property...maybe tube park, real estate, or another small hotel with possibly future another lift headed to the top from that hotel. After full return on investment probably in 10 year range, either sit back and maintain or tear down that lodge and build new.

 

[JohnL]

Vail or a similar deep pocketed ski conglomerate would never buy the Slime - no land for the expansion needed to pay off the needed capital improvements. Both base area and ski slopes. Over the years, they had to sell off land to pay bills (more mismanagement.) And the environmentalists would oppose any large expansion - I thought there was a large fight a few years ago wrt some facility change in the valley? Others may recall better than me.

If they hadn’t sold to the Nature Conservancy the ridge toward WG...

Recall that MRG can get by with little snowmaking. You can do that in Northern VT, but not in the Mid A. That’s another big factor in whether a co-op could work. Plus, the Bandbox has better plumbing and has not been taken over by vermin.

 

[scottyb]

^^^ this

 

[teebrews]

I wonder what Mike D. from Ski SE would say now. "Careful what you wish for", "we’re pulling for them" he says. That's absolutely laughable, if not downright immoral given the recent news. Besides- One run open in Feb? What's left to be "careful" with? I'll take my chances on a T-line closure/sale/seizure.

 

[Dr. Bighair]

I wonder what Mike D. from Ski SE would say now. "Careful what you wish for", "we’re pulling for them" he says. That's absolutely laughable, if not downright immoral given the recent news. Besides- One run open in Feb? What's left to be "careful" with? I'll take my chances on a T-line closure/sale/seizure.

ski southeast would probably blame it on the low end locals, again

 

[Josh Matta]

Even MRG is tetering some years. 3 years ago MRG only operated for 47 days and in the past decade MRG operated for less than 100 days 3 times.

I really want Timberline to succeed, IMO its the best skiing south of Plattkill in the east, and actaully gets far better snowfall than Plattekill.

 

[pipestem]

MRG has the skiing city of Burlington and the entire ski population of the Northeast to draw from. There are another 10 perhaps good ski areas within an hour to prime the pump. Tline is not closer to anywhere than somewhere else. I don't even meet many skiers from Morgantown. Snowshoe is some weird marketing anomaly and maybe a Ponzi scheme. Banner Elk has way more local skiers than Davis. It's very frustrating. There is a potential gem and no one cares. WG has a more loyal base.

 

[AndyGene]

Snowshoe is some weird marketing anomaly and maybe a Ponzi scheme.

Snowshoe also has something for everyone. My wife doesn’t ski. She loves snowshoe because she can get a massage and we can go out for a nice meal. My kids like snowshoe because of the big top and the pool. My friends like snowshoe because there are a bunch of bars.

I like snowshoe because they make snow when they can and a season pass costs $230. They have a 5 month long season. And everyone I go with has something fun they can do.

Timberline has none of that. If they get two feet of snow there are a few fun trails. That’s all. People want more than that.

 

[JohnL]

MRG has the skiing city of Burlington and the entire ski population of the Northeast to draw from. There are another 10 perhaps good ski areas within an hour to prime the pump. Tline is not closer to anywhere than somewhere else. I don't even meet many skiers from Morgantown. Snowshoe is some weird marketing anomaly and maybe a Ponzi scheme. Banner Elk has way more local skiers than Davis. It's very frustrating. There is a potential gem and no one cares. WG has a more loyal base.

?

T-Line is less than 3 hours from the 6th largest market in the US -DC. Burlington is a tiny city - would get swallowed up by other EC cities. And MRG is not the closest area to Burlington.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

Plus add in Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Richmond, etc.