Mid-Atlantic The Neverending Timberline, WV: Info, Weather, and Stoke

[pipestem]

I don’t see that. I think the only thing that sets it apart from other area resorts is the Salamander. Other than that it has a tree run that opens once a year, assuming the lift is running to get you up there. Maybe I’m just not skiing the right places in Vermont.

... hater gonna hate. You ski salamander like once. You ski the wall and the drop all day, And remember/imagine when they actually manage the snow. It skis like twice as big as CVR. And then there's the chill... (ok CVR might be just a tad more chill. I've seen the lifts running with no lifties).

 

[Johnfmh]

Does anyone know how much is owed in back taxes by the resort?

 

[Dr. Bighair]

Which resort affiliate...the ski hill, the utility, or the realty? Which taxes...county hotel/motel, county property, employee paycheck witholdings, state taxes, federal taxes? They are all in play at the moment. I have just heard rumors on the numbers, so don't want to speculate on that. But I am sure it is all public record if someone wanted to dig. I know the PSC has referenced state and federal tax issues with the utility and there is currently an investigation concerning the hotel/motel tax. The unpaid county property taxes were listed in the local paper a few months ago and they were significant.

 

[Johnfmh]

Thanks. I raise this issue because a forced tax sale may be the only way the situation changes.

 

[Dr. Bighair]

Could be. I also think the situation is going to change as the investigation rolls out on the utility and the missing monies. The issue of what happened to the money in the utility account that was specifically earmarked for payment to the Canaan Valley sewage treatment center and for maintenance and upkeep of the utiliity. Timberline collects $65 from every customer for sewage treatment that they are supposed to hold and then pass along to the Canaan Valley sewage treatment center every month in the some of about 30K. Instead of paying those monies to the sewage treatment facility they withdrew it from the account for other purposes over the last few months. The state PSC has been asking them what those moneys were spent on, etc for a while and the owners of Timberline have refused to answer. Finally, days after the emergency PSC interim relief hearing where the state granted the Canaan Valley sewage treatment facility access to timberlines bank accounts and the ability to sweep them 4 times a month to get back payments and current payments, the owners of timberline, through there attorney, identified the debits from the utility account over the last few months and then promised to disclose what those monies where spent on within 7 days. That promise was made on Nov 1st...9 days ago and still no answer. Here is the document that is on public record on the WV PSC docket....

http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/....cfm?CaseActivityID=506727&NotType='WebDocket'

 

[Johnfmh]

Thanks. I guess we have to wait for the investigation to run its course. That doesn’t bode well for this season, 2018-19.

 

[dbostedo]

Timberline collects $65 from every customer...

Is that the right number - maybe it should be $6.50? That's more than the cost of a lift ticket.

 

[JohnL]

@dbostedo That is correct number. They are talking about monthly billing of a utility, which is owned by the same principals as the ski area. There are coupled financial problems - the specifics of the utility problems are better known since the utility is public and is the subject of legal issues linked in this thread.

 

[JohnL]

Here is a quick summary of what is going on for those who haven't posted on this thread.

Timberline, the ski area, still does not have power/phone service (since April?) Web site is still not selling season tickets for upcoming year - in years past, I would buy my season pass in May. Equipment from last year (snow guns, etc.) was apparently left in place from last season. Looks like lift/snow making *maintenance* activity was just started in the past week (at a level TBD but appears to be sketchy.) Several people have season passes (multi-year) for the upcoming season and own real estate at the base of the area. Will the area open and if it does, what can you expect for facilities/quality of skiing?

The Timberline Four Seasons Utility, is owned by the ski area principals and ?. It has had a current boil water notice (for over a week now) for failure to properly staff operators. Additionally, it has not paid a partner utility for sewage treatment - this is affecting the financial stability of the partner utility. This is a subject of legal action linked in this thread. In these court documents, unpaid taxes to the state and possible transfer of funds to/from the utility/ski area have been *raised* by the state. Innocent until proven guilty...

There is a related Timberline Four Seasons Realty, owned by the same people and ? It is also *apparently* having phone\payroll\financial issues.

This whole mess is affecting recreation and property ownership/usage in the Canaan Valley area of West Virginia.

Prolly clear as mud...

 

[Johnfmh]

I pay $85.02 per month for water and sewage for a small 1BR unit even if I don’t visit the unit in a given month. I stopped drinking the water several years ago. Crazy to have to spend this kind of money for water I can’t drink.

 

[dbostedo]

@dbostedo That is correct number. They are talking about monthly billing of a utility, which is owned by the same principals as the ski area. There are coupled financial problems - the specifics of the utility problems are better known since the utility is public and is the subject of legal issues linked in this thread.

Oh... so "customer" in this case is property owners? Not every skier?

 

[JohnL]

Oh... so "customer" in this case is property owners? Not every skier?

Yep. Customer on that post is utility customer (water, sewer.) Nothing to do with ski operations. But they are the homeowners at the base/immediate vicinity of the ski area.

But as I posted earlier, 1) Utility/ski area have many (all?) of the same owners. 2) Trouble between both spilling back and forth.

 

[AndyGene]

... hater gonna hate. You ski salamander like once. You ski the wall and the drop all day, And remember/imagine when they actually manage the snow. It skis like twice as big as CVR. And then there's the chill... (ok CVR might be just a tad more chill. I've seen the lifts running with no lifties).

Salamander is a long trail people of any ability can enjoy. It’s amazing. It’s something strangely lacking from almost every other resort. You can take a family new to skiing on its first weekend and let them ski a trail a mile and a half long. Every hill has something on par with the Wall and the Drop. Just my opinion.

 

[Johnfmh]

Sally is even good for advanced skiers working on drills or trying to improve form. It’s a terrific run with great ski-on, ski-off access for homeowners along the run and folks who rent those homes. I also enjoy using it to scope out Off the Wall before skiing it.

 

[pipestem]

All valid points, but Sally is not why I drive 6 hours..

John - does anyone up there believe there actually is any "recapitalization" ? I feel like if anyone wanted to do that it would have been 10 years ago. You know I was tempted to buy a place but even then it just seemed to unstable. Save that money for plane tickets.

 

[Johnfmh]

@pipestem Short answer: no. Nothing The owners have promised in the past three years or so has come to fruition. What irks many homeowners and small business owners is how slowly this thing is taking to resolve itself. When I purchased my place 17 years ago, we had skiing from mid December through mid April, and a robust summer program (mountain biking, a frontier festival, live music, motorcycles, etc.). Now we have no summer program whatsoever, a shorter season, and infrastructure nearing the end of its lifespan.

At the same time, nearby Davis is booming and we have a new highway that can get people to and from many DC area suburbs in less than three hours. Hiking and mountain biking could not be better. We have a huge population in the Mid-Atlantic craving good terrain, cold weather, and snow. Timberline could help meet this demand if only......

 

[RodneyBD]

Seems like this pretty much boils down (sorry for the pun!) to managerial competence. Kudos to the family for the vision and gumption to create Timberline. But it takes different skill sets and personality to "run" a business. This happens frequently. Some entrepreneurs know that a once a business is up and running it needs professional managers. Some don't (see: Tesla and Elon Musk). Fast forward 32 years after opening: the infrastructure has aged, deferred maintenance has piled up, the capital reserves were probably never appropriately funded (not too mention how much time and focus was devoted to real estate). The result: cash flow that covers operating costs but not capital expenditures. Where does the cash come from? Check out the docs from the WV Public Service Commission court filings. The fascinating question - assuming the family has had competent tax advisers so that their own assets aren't at risk, how much of their own capital are they willing to pump into this failing operation? Cue the old adage- "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". My guess: they try to reach a settlement with the state, hope for a boat load of snow and try to get open and survive the winter. But given what we know (again, see the court filings) it doesn't appear they have (or are willing to dedicate) the resources to keep this operation afloat in the long term. So then we start hearing about Chapter 11. Could be a long slow spiral. Meanwhile, you have a neighboring ski area that buys snow making equipment with funds from the cap ex budget but doesn't use it because it doesn't have the money in the operating budget. Amazing. You know who is grinning from ear to ear? Bob Nutting and Alterra. If it is a good winter 7 Springs and Snowshoe will probably each approach 600K skier visits.

 

[eggraid101]

It's just such a shame to see it happen to a place with great terrain and great potential.

 

[pipestem]

rut oh. https://www.parsonsadvocate.com/investigations-begin-bwn-continues-at-timberline/

The article quaintly quotes 'Fred'. In the end it reads "Timberline plans to open for the ski season on November 30. “We are getting our snow guns put up on the mountain as we speak,” Fred said.

and then...

"Both Fred and Tracy stated they have no intention to sell any of the four affiliated companies."

 

[JohnL]

rut oh. https://www.parsonsadvocate.com/investigations-begin-bwn-continues-at-timberline/

The article quaintly quotes 'Fred'. In the end it reads "Timberline plans to open for the ski season on November 30. “We are getting our snow guns put up on the mountain as we speak,” Fred said.

and then...

"Both Fred and Tracy stated they have no intention to sell any of the four affiliated companies."

They are and have been delusional. To see the laundry list of very serious allegations against them and really think that this is some made up local’s conspiracy to wrestle the ski area from them is beyond the pale. This just confirms numerous anecdotes I’ve heard about them over the years.