Mid-Atlantic The Neverending Timberline, WV: Info, Weather, and Stoke

[mmcshane]

So, I misread pacer last week- the creditors committee had not filed anything (the US Trustee accidentally filed 2 of the same motions, one was a draft and I wasn't paying attention to who filed what) Anyway, the creditors committee filed this morning OBJECTING to expedited hearing on the US Trustee's motion. They think it will just prolong things and cost more for everyone involved. They must be hopeful that there will be a real sale on the 19th.

 

[skidrew]

We feel this is a very important discussion and we felt it should be kept open, but not at all cost, there will be a very short lesh though.

How about deleting (offending) posts and banning repeat offenders?

 

[Philpug]

How about deleting (offending) posts and banning repeat offenders?

We will do what we have to do. If that is uninviting people to participate so be it. But also we do not discuss specific moderating policies in public but remember Pugski.com's simple posting guidelines.

• Rule 1: Don't be an ass.
• Rule 2: Being overly sensitive is also being an ass
• Rule 2a: Phil and Tricia decide who is being an ass.

 

[Snomotion]

So, I misread pacer last week- the creditors committee had not filed anything (the US Trustee accidentally filed 2 of the same motions, one was a draft and I wasn't paying attention to who filed what) Anyway, the creditors committee filed this morning OBJECTING to expedited hearing on the US Trustee's motion. They think it will just prolong things and cost more for everyone involved. They must be hopeful that there will be a real sale on the 19th.

So at this point are their any bidders since the stalking horse bidder dropped out ?

 

[Dr. Bighair]

I have heard rumors of another group interested in bidding and wouldn't be surprised if the would have been stalking horse jumped back in, but that is pure speculation and rumor at this point. I think we are close enough now to the auction that everyone is going to be tight lipped. There is no need to make public plans to bid since the hurtz's actions have pushed this into a straight up auction. Now there is no requirement for communication from bidders to bankruptcy court and no leaking.

It's just a spreadsheet numbers game for bidders at this point. To me picking it up is the easy part...it's what comes after the purchase that matters. 10 mil investment gets a buyer back to where the place left off 5 years ago and ends up it bankruptcy in another couple years, 20 million puts the place back in "competition" mode with Canaan and the 2 1/2 month season, 30 million gets the place on par with most all of the other resorts in the mid-A, and 40 million gives snowshoe a run for their money with a true four season resort.

At one time t-line did 100k skiers a year...which I think with the new highway could grow to a 120k -150k number easily with modern facilities, modern infrastructure, and a full season from Thanksgiving to 1st of April. Multiply that skier count by a modest 100 dollars revenue per skier for seasonal ski season revenue. Subtract the overhead, labor burden, and other cost of business. The numbers work as long as the ability to invest, carry the cost until payback, and most importantly to manage and promote a resort is there. That doesn't even include revenue from the possibility of making it a true four season resort.

 

[32Porkchop]

I have heard rumors of another group interested in bidding and wouldn't be surprised if the would have been stalking horse jumped back in, but that is pure speculation and rumor at this point. I think we are close enough now to the auction that everyone is going to be tight lipped. There is no need to make public plans to bid since the hurtz's actions have pushed this into a straight up auction. Now there is no requirement for communication from bidders to bankruptcy court and no leaking.

It's just a spreadsheet numbers game for bidders at this point. To me picking it up is the easy part...it's what comes after the purchase that matters. 10 mil investment gets a buyer back to where the place left off 5 years ago and ends up it bankruptcy in another couple years, 20 million puts the place back in "competition" mode with Canaan and the 2 1/2 month season, 30 million gets the place on par with most all of the other resorts in the mid-A, and 40 million gives snowshoe a run for their money with a true four season resort.

At one time t-line did 100k skiers a year...which I think with the new highway could grow to a 120k -150k number easily with modern facilities, modern infrastructure, and a full season from Thanksgiving to 1st of April. Multiply that skier count by a modest 100 dollars revenue per skier for seasonal ski season revenue. Subtract the overhead, labor burden, and other cost of business. The numbers work as long as the ability to invest, carry the cost until payback, and most importantly to manage and promote a resort is there. That doesn't even include revenue from the possibility of making it a true four season resort.

Respectfully disagree with the $ investments. Maybe Dr. Bighair (who I know knows this resort and I respect his judgment) was just using fake numbers to make his point, but, $6.5M got Laurel Mtn. back into the business and based on my own skiing experience there, they'll be around long after I die, unless Nutting decides to kill it and he sure as heck ain't subsidizing it. Smart $ invested the right way. It'll be around for a long time, especially given altitude and proximity now with Corridor H to the DC market. My wish is that the next investor buys it cheap and still has the $ to invest to ensure its long term survival.

 

[Dr. Bighair]

Ha, another tslimer chimes in. We are getting close to quorum numbers here. But, no fake numbers. I think my numbers are round...but good, and they would work.

 

[Mook21]

For T-Line to become 4 seasons is not a stretch. They have a core of downhill mountain bike trails and could expand working with Whitegrass and Canaan to have an amazing set of mountain bike cross country trails to compliment T-Line's gravity / downhill trails. Canaan is already investing heavily in mountain bike trails, opening 3-4 miles of professionally built flow style trails this year. Canaan Valley was one of the original homes to epic mountain bike riding but has fallen down and lost that place of prominence BUT the core trails are still there. Mountain being is much like skiing, expensive. Actually even more expensive with a "good" XC bike going for $3k+ and enduro bikes going for $4k+

 

[scottyb]

I take snow making for 10 million Alex.

What is we need a bigger lake?

 

[crgildart]

Respectfully disagree with the $ investments. Maybe Dr. Bighair (who I know knows this resort and I respect his judgment) was just using fake numbers to make his point, but, $6.5M got Laurel Mtn. back into the business and based on my own skiing experience there, they'll be around long after I die, unless Nutting decides to kill it and he sure as heck ain't subsidizing it. Smart $ invested the right way. It'll be around for a long time, especially given altitude and proximity now with Corridor H to the DC market. My wish is that the next investor buys it cheap and still has the $ to invest to ensure its long term survival.

Laurel Mountain has ONE lift and limited snow making capabilities. The lodge is also pretty small. Great little place but hardly a destination..

 

[pipestem]

I'll take one lift, 50% coverage of completely reliable snow making, and bike trail maintenance for 9 million, Alex.

 

[crgildart]

I'll take one lift, 50% coverage of completely reliable snow making, and bike trail maintenance for 9 million, Alex.

Me too along with 5,000 other folks from DC day trippers to NC weekenders packing those cheap slopeside houses. Good luck with the line to that one lift.

 

[pipestem]

And and ...furthermore, lets imagine that the orange lift is unrecoverable. Replace it with a fixed grip quad. Now lets imagine that silver queen is unrecoverable. Remove the rope and chairs, it can be replaced later if needed. Let's get to needed first. Like lets open trails.

All this is nonsense, but its lunchtime.

 

[pipestem]

Me too along with 5,000 other folks from DC day trippers to NC weekenders packing those cheap slopeside houses. Good luck with the line to that one lift.

Nah, I think the brand is damaged and will take some time to recover. When we get to that level then we can leverage a new lift.

 

[crgildart]

If it were up to me I'd just get the snow guns working and drop three rope tows across the mountain and call it good to go! I'd book a trip there this season if they could get that far.

 

[Kemperski]

Since we're in hypothetical mode I agree -- if I could have top to bottom skiing I'd happily pay for whatever could get me to the top, maybe not rope tow, that would be an long haul but two t'bars or a poma and beginner rope tow -- hellyes.

One of the great things about t-line, and Whitegrass and Canaan is how little snow it actually takes for trails and even glades to be skiable. again let's hope something can happen so that they can be maintained and not wait to be completely overgrown

 

[mmcshane]

Few quick updates- there is a hearing tomorrow morning re: appointment of Chapter 11 trustee.
Creditors committee filed objection to debtor's request to employ special counsel re: possible claims against Neely- that hearing is schedule for 12/11. I recommend reading the objection- sorta sums up how everyone probably felt when they read the request in the first place.

 

[Kemperski]

that is an astonishing read, their audacity is breathtaking but I guess that's how players play, makes me feel remarkably old fashioned and honest

 

[dbostedo]

Few quick updates- there is a hearing tomorrow morning re: appointment of Chapter 11 trustee.
Creditors committee filed objection to debtor's request to employ special counsel re: possible claims against Neely- that hearing is schedule for 12/11. I recommend reading the objection- sorta sums up how everyone probably felt when they read the request in the first place.

I love this statement from that objection as a summary, in my opinion, of the whole mess:

"Indeed, the application to retain special counsel to investigate malpractice and breach of fiduciary claims against third-parties appears fully consistent with the Debtors’ management’s steadfast refusal to accept any responsibility whatsoever for the vast operating and financial issues that caused the Debtors to shutter their Resort and file bankruptcy and, instead, foist blame on just about anyone, other than themselves."

 

[skidrew]

Few quick updates- there is a hearing tomorrow morning re: appointment of Chapter 11 trustee.
Creditors committee filed objection to debtor's request to employ special counsel re: possible claims against Neely- that hearing is schedule for 12/11. I recommend reading the objection- sorta sums up how everyone probably felt when they read the request in the first place.

While sloppily written, the sloppiness almost makes it more persuasive as a "This is so ridiculous it's not even worth proper formatting and careful drafting" legal argument.