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Things we can learn from golf and vice versa

crgildart

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Maybe skiings more like driving a bike or car than it is like driving a golf ball. A golf swing is pretty precise putting that 3-4" blade on a 1.5" ball almost exactly the same way. Slightest variation changes the results dramatically. Skiing has a lot more room for error, you may not look as pretty but you can still get fro point A to point B turning and stopping. Golf either you can strike the ball properly without much unintended lateral movement (cut/fade) or you can't. If I take a long break from a bike, skateboard, car, skis I do feel sketchy for the first few minutes, but only the first few minutes. It will take at least 30 minutes to an hour on the range to get the feel of a golf swing back after a long break. It will take several rounds/days to get the finer points, how far to strike behind the ball in the sand, reading greens for putting, etc. Fine tuning bunp skiing and gates does take a little more effort ant time but generally still easier than the precision of putting that blade on a ball without the extra, unintended lateral energy sending the ball way off course.
 

Wasatchman

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I've definitely said that... not verbatim, but I've had a bad run or even a bad day, that felt very similar to days when my golf swing is messed up (not that it's ever all that great). I more likely said something like "that run was a real struggle" or "I just could not get in the right position".

In that way I do see them as similar... in both I might recognize something I'm doing wrong, and come up with some focus or technique to "fix" it. That could be pace, takeaway, wrists, alignment, etc. in golf... and could be weight transfer, arm position, ankle flex/tipping, or head position in skiing. Some of them are pretty similar in terms of being able to balance, though the motions are very different.
I've definitely had a run where it didn't feel right. Maybe I started off a bit unbalanced and didn't recover. But next run or whatever everything is fine. I've had rounds of golf where I literally cant hit a drive or putt to save my life.

And the frustrating thing for me is I'll have a great round with my driver and then the next time it is just horrible. That has never happened to me skiing. Once I learned a skill, it stays with me skiing. Sure I might have a run that feels off, but it's fine the next run. I am never openly questioning what the hell is going on why can't I suddenly turn in skiing like I do golf. There is a huge lack of consistency in golfing for me that I have never experienced skiing.
 

Skitechniek

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If you were to lay off both sports for a year, which skills would deteriorate more - skiing or golf?

Unfair comparison. In golf you are always competing, that is literally the whole point of the sport. Skiing down the mountain for fun is not competing. Maybe you can compare hitting on the driving range with skiing. But if you compare playing a course (with golf), compare it to skiing a course.

I can not pick up a club for months and still play scratch pretty quickly and I can not ski for months and still make turns in a course pretty quickly. What skill deteriorates faster is imho dependent on mastery. If you are a better skier, that will deteriorate less and vice versa.

Apart from that, some of the skills you need in order to compete are vastly different in both sports. In skiing you lose feel for skiing good lines, how fast things are going to be and pure strength. In golf it is distance control, not knowing the course, not knowing the greens and coördination. In tennis e.g it is footwork and stamina which will deteriorate. But from my experience technique doesn't suffer.

In conclusion the comparison is unfair and too complex. The way you maintain your body also determines a lot. If I'd lose strength and improved coordination, golf would probably suffer less. If I'd improve strength and lose coördination, skiing would probably suffer less. If you do nothing at all, I'd say both suffer equally if you mastered both sports equally.
 

dbostedo

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I've definitely had a run where it didn't feel right. Maybe I started off a bit unbalanced and didn't recover. But next run or whatever everything is fine. I've had rounds of golf where I literally cant hit a drive or putt to save my life.
Then you're luckier than me. I had a morning at the Gathering this past year that almost had me packing it up and going in early. A long lunch and a change in scenery helped a lot, and I was really glad I stayed out; But I was pretty frustrated all morning, and fell a couple of times when I felt like I normally wouldn't. I'd call that pretty equivalent (in my mind anyway) to one of those golf rounds where I felt like I couldn't do anything right (which I've also definitely had).
 

Skitechniek

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But maybe only with yourself. I often play without any other competition in mind, than to shoot my best score.

That's what I meant. You are trying to get a low score, so you are competing. Doesn't matter that it is against yourself. In skiing you are just sliding down the mountain, there is no score and not the same incentive to improve. A common goal in golf would be to break 90 and improve your handicap, in skiing the goal might be learn how to carve, or ski a certain trail etc. Those are vastly different goals and golf is mentally therefore much harder imho. As long as you are not afraid to get hurt, skiing is mentally quite an easy sport imho.

The reason someone might think they suck at golf at is decent at skiing, is because you know the reference for good golf. If you shoot 68 you are pretty good. In skiing you have no clue about the reference for good skiing. People think they are quite the bad ass cause they can ski a black, but they would be twice as slow on injected ice as a wc athlete. Just like average Joe would shoot 136 on Augusta on a good day. With golf you know exactly how much you suck, with skiing you don't.
 
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JESinstr

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Some great opinions and views being expressed!
But the big point that Malaska makes that prompted me to start this thread is that things aren't always what they seem to be and in both sports, it is the subject of upper body rotation. Many golfers and skiers that want to improve watch videos and view others at the range or on the slopes and see bodies rotating which, as it turns out, is an outcome of a generated straight line force.

A lot of this also has to do with "Frame of Reference" and that's a thread for another day.
 

LiquidFeet

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....things aren't always what they seem to be
....see bodies rotating which, as it turns out, is an outcome of a generated straight line force.....
@JESinstr, do you mean people see rotational movement of a body part when that movement is actually in a straight line? Are you thinking this is something people see wrong?

A force applied in a straight line will rotate something if that something is a rigid body and one end of it is fixed in place while the end receiving the force is not fixed in place. A rigid body (pelvis for instance) can rotate around a femur head due to a force that's applied in a straight line, but there is no mistake in seeing the rotation. It's real.
 
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crgildart

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Best golf tip I ever received was from my uncle. He told me to visualize my arms as spokes in a wheel and my head is the hub of that wheel.

Skiing was probably that the turn execution begins with the pole plant and ends with the next pole plant.

Both made my critical motions "automatic" and began to ingrain that muscle memory after lots of practice with that in mind.

What are some other folks, "best" or most "ah ha" moment golf lesson tip and game ski lesson tip?
 

Turoa Kiwi

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Here are the rules of skiing
  • Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
  • People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
  • You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
  • Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
  • Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
  • Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
  • Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
Know the code. It's your responsibility.




Here are SOME of the abbreviated rules of golf and note all the references to "read more"


About The Rules of Golf


The Rules of Golf content is intended for those who administer the game and who need to answer the variety of questions that can arise in relation to golf competitions. If you are a player, it is recommended that you should first consult 'The Player's Edition'.
Useful Links

Rules QuizVisual SearchDefinitions index

1
The Game, Player Conduct and the Rules
Purpose: Rule 1 introduces these central principles of the game for the player: Play the course as you find it and play the ball as it lies. Play by the Rules and in the spirit of the game. You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent in match play or other players in stroke play.
Read more

2
The Course
Purpose: Rule 2 introduces the basic things every player should know about the course: There are five defined areas of the course, and There are several types of defined objects and conditions that can interfere with play. It is important to know the area of the course where the ball lies and the status of any interfering objects and conditions, because they often affect the player’s options for playing the ball or taking relief.
Read more

3
The Competition
Purpose: Rule 3 covers the three central elements of all golf competitions: Playing either match play or stroke play, Playing either as an individual or with a partner as part of a side, and Scoring either by gross scores (no handicap strokes applied) or net scores (handicap strokes applied).
Read more

4
The Player’s Equipment
Purpose: Rule 4 covers the equipment that players may use during a round. Based on the principle that golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the player’s judgment, skills and abilities, the player: Must use conforming clubs and balls, Is limited to no more than 14 clubs and normally must not replace damaged or lost clubs, and Is restricted in the use of other equipment that gives artificial help to his or her play.
Read more

5
Playing the Round
Purpose: Rule 5 covers how to play a round – such as where and when a player may practise on the course before or during a round, when a round starts and ends and what happens when play has to stop or resume. Players are expected to: Start each round on time, and Play continuously and at a prompt pace during each hole until the round is completed. When it is a player’s turn to play, it is recommended that he or she make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds, and usually more quickly than that.
Read more

6
Playing a Hole
Purpose: Rule 6 covers how to play a hole – such as the specific Rules for teeing off to start a hole, the requirement to use the same ball for an entire hole except when substitution is allowed, the order of play (which matters more in match play than stroke play) and completing a hole.
Read more

7
Ball Search: Finding and Identifying Ball
Purpose: Rule 7 allows the player to take reasonable actions to fairly search for his or her ball in play after each stroke. But the player still must be careful, as a penalty will apply if the player acts excessively and causes improvement to the conditions affecting his or her next stroke. The player gets no penalty if the ball is accidentally moved in trying to find or identify it, but must then replace the ball on its original spot.
Read more

8
Course Played as It Is Found
Purpose: Rule 8 covers a central principle of the game: “play the course as you find it”. When the player’s ball comes to rest, he or she normally has to accept the conditions affecting the stroke and not improve them before playing the ball. However, a player may take certain reasonable actions even if they improve those conditions, and there are limited circumstances where conditions may be restored without penalty after they have been improved or worsened.
Read more

9
Ball Played as It Lies; Ball at Rest Lifted or Moved
Purpose: Rule 9 covers a central principle of the game: “play the ball as it lies.” If the player’s ball comes to rest and is then moved by natural forces such as wind or water, the player normally must play it from its new spot. If a ball at rest is lifted or moved by anyone or any outside influence before the stroke is made, the ball must be replaced on its original spot. Players should take care when near any ball at rest, and a player who causes his or her own ball or an opponent’s ball to move will normally get a penalty (except on the putting green).
Read more

10
Preparing for and Making a Stroke; Advice and Help; Caddies
Purpose: Rule 10 covers how to prepare for and make a stroke, including advice and other help the player may get from others (including caddies). The underlying principle is that golf is a game of skill and personal challenge.
Read more

11
Ball in Motion Accidentally Hits Person, Animal or Object; Deliberate Actions to Affect Ball in Motion
Purpose: Rule 11 covers what to do if the player’s ball in motion hits a person, animal, equipment or anything else on the course. When this happens accidentally, there is no penalty and the player normally must accept the result, whether favourable or not, and play the ball from where it comes to rest. Rule 11 also restricts a player from deliberately taking actions to affect where any ball in motion might come to rest.
Read more

12
Bunkers
Purpose: Rule 12 is a specific Rule for bunkers, which are specially prepared areas intended to test the player’s ability to play a ball from the sand. To make sure the player confronts this challenge, there are some restrictions on touching the sand before the stroke is made and on where relief may be taken for a ball in a bunker.
Read more

13
Putting Greens
Purpose: Rule 13 is a specific Rule for putting greens. Putting greens are specially prepared for playing the ball along the ground and there is a flagstick for the hole on each putting green, so certain different Rules apply than for other areas of the course.
Read more

14
Procedures for Ball: Marking, Lifting and Cleaning; Replacing on Spot; Dropping in Relief Area; Playing from Wrong Place
Purpose: Rule 14 covers when and how the player may mark the spot of a ball at rest and lift and clean the ball and how to put a ball back into play so that the ball is played from the right place. When a lifted or moved ball is to be replaced, the same ball must be set down on its original spot. When taking free relief or penalty relief, a substituted ball or the original ball must be dropped in a particular relief area. A mistake in using these procedures may be corrected without penalty before the ball is played, but the player gets a penalty if he or she plays the ball from the wrong place.
Read more

15
Relief from Loose Impediments and Movable Obstructions (including Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play)
Purpose: Rule 15 covers when and how the player may take free relief from loose impediments and movable obstructions. These movable natural and artificial objects are not treated as part of the challenge of playing the course, and a player is normally allowed to remove them when they interfere with play. But the player needs to be careful in moving loose impediments near his or her ball off the putting green, because there will be a penalty if moving them causes the ball to move.
Read more

16
Relief from Abnormal Course Conditions (Including Immovable Obstructions), Dangerous Animal Condition, Embedded Ball
Purpose: Rule 16 covers when and how the player may take free relief by playing a ball from a different place, such as when there is interference by an abnormal course condition or a dangerous animal condition. These conditions are not treated as part of the challenge of playing the course, and free relief is generally allowed except in a penalty area. The player normally takes relief by dropping a ball in a relief area based on the nearest point of complete relief. This Rule also covers free relief when a player’s ball is embedded in its own pitch mark in the general area.
Read more

17
Penalty Areas
Purpose: Rule 17 is a specific Rule for penalty areas, which are bodies of water or other areas defined by the Committee where a ball is often lost or unable to be played. For one penalty stroke, players may use specific relief options to play a ball from outside the penalty area.
Read more

18
Stroke-and-Distance Relief, Ball Lost or Out of Bounds, Provisional Ball
Purpose: Rule 18 covers taking relief under penalty of stroke and distance. When a ball is lost outside a penalty area or comes to rest out of bounds, the required progression of playing from the teeing area to the hole is broken; the player must resume that progression by playing again from where the previous stroke was made. This Rule also covers how and when a provisional ball may be played to save time when the ball in play might have gone out of bounds or be lost outside a penalty area.
Read more

19
Unplayable Ball
Purpose: Rule 19 covers the player’s several relief options for an unplayable ball. This allows the player to choose which option to use – normally with one penalty stroke – to get out of a difficult situation anywhere on the course (except in a penalty area).
Read more

20
Resolving Rules Issues During Round; Rulings by Referee and Committee
Purpose: Rule 20 covers what players should do when they have questions about the Rules during a round, including the procedures (which differ in match play and stroke play) allowing a player to protect the right to get a ruling at a later time. The Rule also covers the role of referees who are authorized to decide questions of fact and apply the Rules. Rulings from a referee or the Committee are binding on all players.
Read more

21
Other Forms of Individual Stroke Play and Match Play
Purpose: Rule 21 covers four other forms of individual play, including three forms of stroke play where scoring is different than in regular stroke play: Stableford (scoring by points awarded on each hole); Maximum Score (the score for each hole is capped at a maximum); and Par/Bogey (match play scoring used on a hole by hole basis).
Read more

22
Foursomes (Also Known as Alternate Shot)
Purpose: Rule 22 covers Foursomes (played either in match play or stroke play), where two partners compete together as a side by alternating in making strokes at a single ball. The Rules for this form of play are essentially the same as for individual play, except for requiring the partners to alternate in teeing off to start a hole and to play out each hole with alternate shots.
Read more

23
Four-Ball
Purpose: Rule 23 covers Four-Ball (played either in match play or stroke play), where partners compete as a side with each playing a separate ball. The side’s score for a hole is the lower score of the partners on that hole.
Read more

24
Team Competitions
Purpose: Rule 24 covers team competitions (played in either match play or stroke play), where multiple players or sides compete as a team with the results of their rounds or matches combined to produce an overall team score.
Read more

And that is why I'm a skier
ENOUGH SAID



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Thread Starter
TS
JESinstr

JESinstr

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@JESinstr, do you mean people see rotational movement of a body part when that movement is actually in a straight line? Are you thinking this is something people see wrong?

A force applied in a straight line will rotate something if that something is a rigid body and one end of it is fixed in place while the end receiving the force is not fixed in place. A rigid body (pelvis for instance) can rotate around a femur head due to a force that's applied in a straight line, but there is no mistake in seeing the rotation. It's real.

No disagreement here but (staying with the pelvis example) if someone sees rotation of the pelvis, I would think how that rotation was accomplished is important to the task at hand which again is Malaska's point. That is, was the visual effect of pelvic rotation caused by a push back at the inside hip socket or was the outside socket being pulled forward. I will submit, with an untrained skier, that the natural propensity (based on survival instincts) is to pull the outside hip forward in an attempt to force redirection and brace the ski broadside to direction of travel.

So I think in terms of an instructor's efforts to improve his/hers movement analyisis skills. This kind of knowledge and awareness is important.
 

LiquidFeet

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New England
No disagreement here but (staying with the pelvis example) if someone sees rotation of the pelvis, I would think how that rotation was accomplished is important to the task at hand which again is Malaska's point. That is, was the visual effect of pelvic rotation caused by a push back at the inside hip socket or was the outside socket being pulled forward. I will submit, with an untrained skier, that the natural propensity (based on survival instincts) is to pull the outside hip forward in an attempt to force redirection and brace the ski broadside to direction of travel.

So I think in terms of an instructor's efforts to improve his/hers movement analyisis skills. This kind of knowledge and awareness is important.

Yes, we are indeed on the same page with what needs to be taught. It's an unfamiliar thing to move the pelvis clockwise while the skis are moving counter-clockwise. That's a difficult thing to teach, but exceedingly important. We can have a student focus on holding the upper body/pelvis stable. We can have them focus on facing the jacket zipper downhill-ish. We can focus on having them rotate the new inside thigh or point the new inside knee into the new turn. Or we can focus on having them pull that new outside hip back. I have a thing I use with the hands to get this separation working.

Those comments are probably off-base to what you're getting at with this golf video. Sometimes I can't follow your ideas because you are more focused on forces than I am. I try not to use the word force in a lesson. Certainly not centripetal force. I try not to use "parallel" or "perpendicular" either, in case I have a math-phobic client. Once I know their background, I'll use those terms, but never in a group lesson. I've found "can you do this?" works better. "Try this." "Great. Now add this." "How about patting your head and rubbing your tummy while we try this?" (Laughter.)

I'm going to miss teaching next season. I'll be sheltering at home until a vaccine is available.
 
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Thread Starter
TS
JESinstr

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
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@LiquidFeet believe it or not, I don't (OK I try not to) use the word force in my lessons as well. ogsmile

Now as to your last sentence. Ski season is a long way away. As Tom Hanks said... "Who knows what the tide will bring"

Stay safe.
 

locknload

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Interesting discussion. I think the similarities of the two sports reside in the task of managing powerful forces like G forces and club speed to accomplish something rather precise. Skiing requires the ability to make gradual edge adjustments and pushing skis in and out of turn shapes to re-direct your energy going down the hill while absorbing imperfections the terrain all the while staying balanced. When done well, we all know the feeling of "flow" or dancing with the mountain and its almost effortless and takes you to a higher level for bit...think of an amazing powder run where you put together 50 to 100 perfect turns with lots of face shots! In golf, flushing that pure iron and coming to a super balanced finish and feeling the ball compress and feel like butter and then watching the perfect ball flight that you pictured is VERY satisfying. I think both require serious commitment, resilience to keep working and the mental discipline to stay positive and not get discouraged on bad days. Finally...they both get you outside in vastly different conditions. Golf is typically played in warm weather with grass, trees and water around. Skiing has you out in cold weather with blowing snow, snow frosted trees and beautiful vistas. I think they are 2 sides of the same coin and together they complete the equation for me.
 

Jjmd

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I have coached and instructed both golf and skiing at high levels and while there are many similarities in achieving excellence in the two sports,the main difference is that the empirical evidence of your action is in different places. In sports like tennis, golf, basketball etc. you can witness what forces you applied to the object in real time, i.e. the object is in front of you, and you have an instant barometer of your success, or lack there of. You know before attempting another shot if you were applying the correct spin or trajectory. With skiing you have your sensory feedback, which may or may not be correct, during the turn, but you can not turn around and examine your tracks in the snow. For some of us,”feel is real“,but for many it is not. This makes learning ski racing and/or high level all mountain skiing a different proposition.
 

Jim Kenney

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I'm getting ready to go play golf on a cool morning and I'm using some of my skiing underlayers.:wave:
 

Gary Stolt

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I have coached and instructed both golf and skiing at high levels and while there are many similarities in achieving excellence in the two sports,the main difference is that the empirical evidence of your action is in different places. In sports like tennis, golf, basketball etc. you can witness what forces you applied to the object in real time, i.e. the object is in front of you, and you have an instant barometer of your success, or lack there of. You know before attempting another shot if you were applying the correct spin or trajectory. With skiing you have your sensory feedback, which may or may not be correct, during the turn, but you can not turn around and examine your tracks in the snow. For some of us,”feel is real“,but for many it is not. This makes learning ski racing and/or high level all mountain skiing a different proposition.

That sounds quite technical. I've played a lot of golf in my life and I am quite sure that the main similarity between golf and skiing is that they both cost money. One is played in warmer weather, one in colder weather, one on grass and one on snow. In golf, most players are upset with their game, we all think we are better than we are. Ask a golfer how he played and the answer is #$@%&?&%. Ask a skier how his day is going on the mountain and he is excited and says "Its just great".
 

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