Things we can learn from golf and vice versa

[karlo]

Golf. Great way to develop kinesthetic awareness.

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr, when skiing, do you ever muscularly move your outside hip back? If yes, have you found it helpful, and if yes, in what way?

I do this. I've not found anyone talking about it in ski instruction. Maybe I've missed it.
But since I haven't encountered anyone writing or talking about it, I've concluded that skiers are not supposed to do it, and that I'm an outlier. I'm OK with that, because the results are good.

I hope you see this post, because I am genuinely interested in your answer. The golf video prompted me to ask.

LF, Sorry for the delay in responding.

My answer is yes. But unlike the golf application (clearing the way for the completion of the swing) it is to get myself in strong alignment with the outside ski for management of the upward carving forces to come.

I am not going to tell you that pushing my outside hip socket to the rear is a main "ski thought" in my skiing as this movement has been ingrained and I really don't think about it but that doesn't mean it ain't happening!

When attempting to enter the carving state (medium to long radius) , my first move is to soften my inside leg and get the pressure headed to the outside ski. This also initiates/enables the edging/tipping process. My outside hip socket (and the muscles that surround it) down to the arch of my foot becomes ground zero in terms of input for balance, pressure management and edge angle development.

 

[geepers]

Have learned that ski companies are much better at marketing than golf club companies.

How many active sets of golf clubs do you have compared to number of pairs of skis?

Actually golf marketing has it all over ski marketing. Folk buy a set of golf clubs with a number of woods, irons, wedges and a putter. They are already programmed to buy a set. If the ski marketeers ever get to the point where a skier automatically buys a set of skis including long, medium and short radius carvers, a few mid fats, a couple of really wide fats and a pair of dedicated mogul skis then they will have done their stuff.

And I'm willing to bet that for the typical golfer there's a few clubs in the bag that never get swung. (What's the stat: only 10% of golfers regularly break 90....)

 

[Philpug]

Two words for me...slow down. Once I slow things down, both sports are much better. I am just happy to get a lot out of my game.

 

[David Orr]

Finally a topic that I can actually share some insight!

First of all, I got back into skiing after 30 year hiatus to be a Golf Professional, who has both played and taught at the highest levels.

Why? A loss of Love of One and a "Reunited Love" for the Other...No Scorecards and Pencils...LOL

IMO...To be Relatively Good at BOTH Golf and Skiing there are a few common pre-requisites if I am honest:

1) Coordination - Hand/Eyes and Feet/Ground and everything in between
2) Dynamic Balance - Managing COM and COP while in motion
3) Rotation - In all 3 Planes of Motion with many joints and segments
4) 3 Way Separation: Upper Body vs. Lower Body, Upper Body vs. Head/Neck, Upper Body vs. Arms/Hands
5) Elite Athleticism: Believe it or not ...LOL
6) Highly Developed Mental Skill Sets
7) Deep Practice - Feedback and Recall
8) Experience in Different Environments
9) Ability to Adapt and Adjust on the Move
10) A Growth Mind-Set that cultivates "Master Learners"

I have been very blessed and fortunate to have worked with some of the best players in the world of golf...3 Ryder Cup Players and 2 Solheim Cup Players. 2 Players Ranked in Top 10 OWGR, and 5 Players in the Top 25...Yes you would know who they are if I named them!

It is funny how "world-class" athletes always want to be great at other sports...Michael Jordan learned that lesson quickly with both Baseball and Golf.

The greatest thing about BOTH sports are the "personal growth" and the "many great folks you meet along the way" on the greens and the slopes!

 

[Wasatchman]

I struggle to find much common between golf and skiing.

Golf you have to keep playing to stay sharp, whereas skiing you could stop for 10 years and start skiing again and not lose nearly the skill as you would at golf. The other thing about skiing is once you learn a skill you generally retain it whereas golf, I can hit a driver well one round and then complete rubbish the next day. It's not like I go skiing and suddenly I can't carve a turn like golf where I suddenly can't putt or hit a driver.

Sure, there are common ground like mental, etc. But I could come as many come up with as many common grounds as solving mathematical calculus problems and skiing as I could golf and skiing. They are not remotely similar to me, other than they are both sports that generally lean toward the wealthy.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Wasatchman, that's an interesting point.

For those of you who do play golf (not me), why is it that the nuances of a good swing are so hard to control so that you can't reliably do the same thing each time?

Just thinking.... maybe the moves we make for a ski turn are no more reliably replicable than the moves a golfer makes. Maybe instead it's the results that are so different. In ski turns we make a zillion of them, and if we screw up one a little bit, we can compensate with the next. In golf, scew up a swing a little, the ball goes haywire, and you're toast. There aren't that many swings in a golf game, so each one matters way more than a single ski turn.

Could that be it? Armchair analysis is not usually any good.

 

[David Orr]

For those of you who do play golf (not me), why is it that the nuances of a good swing are so hard to control so that you can reliably do the same thing each time?

Great question! Golf is probably one of the most precise sports to master! Hitting a ball far enough to play from the tees that you are playing, hitting it straight enough, flighting the ball the right trajectory through the elements, and spinning a ball enough to stop it the right distance. Then arriving on the green you need to judge the slope, make a stroke with the ball rolling at the correct speed and brake direction. Not easy!

 

[David Orr]

I struggle to find much common between golf and skiing.

Golf you have to keep playing to stay sharp, whereas skiing you could stop for 10 years and start skiing again and not lose nearly the skill as you would at golf. The other thing about skiing is once you learn a skill you generally retain it whereas golf, I can hit a driver well one round and then complete rubbish the next day. It's not like I go skiing and suddenly I can't carve a turn like golf where I suddenly can't putt or hit a driver.

Sure, there are common ground like mental, etc. But I could come as many come up with as many common grounds as solving mathematical calculus problems and skiing as I could golf and skiing. They are not remotely similar to me, other than they are both sports that generally lean toward the wealthy.

Fair enough...especially the last half of the last sentence...but I didn't want to go there!

 

[dbostedo]

In ski turns we make a zillion of them, and if we screw up one a little bit, we can compensate with the next. In golf, scew up a swing a little, the ball goes haywire, and you're toast. There aren't that many swings in a golf game, so each one matters way more than a single ski turn.

I think that's it. A golf swing has to all come together in an instant, and there aren't many of them in a round. If I asked you to go out and make 80 perfectly carved turns of varying radius each from a dead stop, you might have something more equivalent.

But even then, if I screw up my swing in golf, I go way off track or lose a ball. There's not typically an outcome in a ski turn like that. I suppose it could be falling down, but that's more like missing the ball altogether in golf I think.

 

[S.H.]

I think that's it. A golf swing has to all come together in an instant, and there aren't many of them in a round. If I asked you to go out and make 80 perfectly carved turns of varying radius each from a dead stop, you might have something more equivalent.

But even then, if I screw up my swing in golf, I go way off track or lose a ball. There's not typically an outcome in a ski turn like that. I suppose it could be falling down, but that's more like missing the ball altogether in golf I think.

idk, I fall way more often skiing than I have whiffed a golf ball, but I am a much better skier than golfer. Falling is more akin to a major issue with the strike, IMO (shank, blade, chunk, etc.) ;-)

 

[SkiBam]

Interesting discussion. I'm a life-long and good skier, but took up golf (for some unknown reason) in my older age (5 or 6 years ago now). Only now am I getting to a point where I can sort of (and I really do mean sort of) count on my swing do do what I want. In my earlier days of golf, I longed for the season to end so I could get back to something I was good at (skiing). Now, I look forward to every game and feel much more positive. Clearly a lot of it is in my head.

Someone mentioned how a person would lose their golf skills faster than they would their skiing skills. Dunno. I have an elderly friend who re-took up golf a few years ago, after having not played in maybe 8 or 9 years. It seemed to come back to him immediately and he played way way better than the rest of us - and still does. (I like to say that maybe when I get to be 90 I'll be able to hit the ball like that!)

 

[crgildart]

Golf. Great way to develop kinesthetic awareness.

And a sailor's vocabulary

 

[crgildart]

But even then, if I screw up my swing in golf, I go way off track or lose a ball. There's not typically an outcome in a ski turn like that. I suppose it could be falling down, but that's more like missing the ball altogether in golf I think.

Well, there is hooking an edge... And when that happens at high speed along the edge of the woods, it can end very badly. Mess up a golf shot and you lose a ball. Mess up a ski turn near exposure and it might be the end of your day or career.

Also. misjudge the distance between you and other golfers and you hit them with a small, but painful golfball. Misjusdge the distance between you and other skiers and you hit them with your entire body with 180cm long razors attached.

 

[Wasatchman]

I have an elderly friend who re-took up golf a few years ago, after having not played in maybe 8 or 9 years. It seemed to come back to him immediately and he played way way better than the rest of us - and still does. (I like to say that maybe when I get to be 90 I'll be able to hit the ball like that!)

I believe your friend is a very rare exception. Golf and tennis, pros need to warm up and practice first before they go out and play. As far as I know, ski racers or free skiers don't necessarily need to do that. There is something inherently different about the muscle memory.

 

[dbostedo]

I have an elderly friend who re-took up golf a few years ago, after having not played in maybe 8 or 9 years. It seemed to come back to him immediately and he played way way better than the rest of us - and still does. (I like to say that maybe when I get to be 90 I'll be able to hit the ball like that!)

I believe your friend is a very rare exception. Golf and tennis, pros need to warm up and practice first before they go out and play. As far as I know, ski racers or free skiers don't necessarily need to do that. There is something inherently different about the muscle memory.

I think you're conflating a few things. In one case we're talking about long term memory... the most common example being riding a bike. Most people can pick it up again quickly, or don't see any loss of skill, after a long time off. The same holds true, IMO, in golf, tennis, and skiing. If Tiger Woods didn't play for a few years, he's still going to go out that first time out and be infinitely better than I am.

What you're talking more about with regard to warm-ups is, I think, precision or fine control of muscles. That's what warm-ups are for... to work out any little kinks or tweaks, or remind themselves of very precise movements that may have gotten off. They're looking for that last small percentage of improvement when they actually do play. If golfers and tennis players didn't warm-up, I don't know that most people would be able to see any difference.

I also don't see why skiing would be any different - but now that you mention it, I don't know. Do pro ski racers go out and do warm-up runs the day of the race? I always assumed they did, but I have no idea.

 

[Skitechniek]

Imho the main two things golf and skiing (and tennis as well) have in common from a technical pov is that you need to be very good at standing on one leg (static balance) and upper/lower body seperation.

But I wouldn't say you could really learn better ski technique from playing golf or tennis. Being a good athlete is what helps most imho when you want to excell at multiple sports. Which include things like:
- Good proprioception
- Strong mental game
- Good coördination
- Good balance (static and dynamic)
- Physical ability (strenght, flexibility and endurance)
- Having great posture (very underestimated thing imho)
- And most important, being a great learner

In my youth I played all three sports (skiing, golf and tennis) competitively on at least a top tier national level. 10 years of my life I trained every day. The most notable thing I learned personally from playing all those sports is how incredibly well you have to take care of you body in order to be able to compete.

If you want to be good at your sport, start losing weight, start fixing your horrible posture, start increasing strength, stamina and flexibility, start sleeping at 22:00, start eating healthy. A lot of people have a leg length difference, see if that needs fixing in order to improve balance. And stop buying the newest gear every year as a quick fix for all your problems. What people do outside of their sport is what is holding progress back for most people if you ask me.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Golf and skiing are exactly the same as I have allowed both to become all consuming preferred activities. Both are great with friends or just enjoying the day alone. Both require spending unending hours outside. Both have been passions of mine.

 

[Wasatchman]

Golf and skiing are exactly the same as I have allowed both to become all consuming preferred activities. Both are great with friends or just enjoying the day alone. Both require spending unending hours outside. Both have been passions of mine.

If you were to lay off both sports for a year, which skills would deteriorate more - skiing or golf?

I am just a horrible golfer and don't spend that much time at it. But the golfers I know all unanimously say you have to keep playing to keep your skills sharp.

To me golfing has much more in common with shooting free throws in basketball, tennis, bowling, and even marbles than skiing. There is a high level of hand eye coordination that is not nearly as necessary in skiing. I hear recreational golfers all the time say something happened, I need to fix my swing. Rarely do I hear experienced recreational skiers say something happened, I need to fix my turns.

The other thing is golf has a specific score to it where skiing does not. Sure I feel I do a lot better skiing down a certain run than at other times, but there is no specific numerical score to it in recreational skiing.

I simply see more areas of difference than commonality between the two sports. The biggest thing I see in common is great sports for enjoying the outdoors and both are expensive and generally skew toward wealthy as far as participation. And both sports are not really growing. In fact, I believe golf in the USA is declining.

 

[dbostedo]

Rarely do I hear experienced recreational skiers say something happened, I need to fix my turns.

I've definitely said that... not verbatim, but I've had a bad run or even a bad day, that felt very similar to days when my golf swing is messed up (not that it's ever all that great). I more likely said something like "that run was a real struggle" or "I just could not get in the right position".

In that way I do see them as similar... in both I might recognize something I'm doing wrong, and come up with some focus or technique to "fix" it. That could be pace, takeaway, wrists, alignment, etc. in golf... and could be weight transfer, arm position, ankle flex/tipping, or head position in skiing. Some of them are pretty similar in terms of being able to balance, though the motions are very different.