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crgildart

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I'm making the ultimate old fart long drive day trip ski decision for tomorrow morning.afternoon. When I saw it will likely be at or below zero up on the mountain at 7am tomorrow morning I have decided I'd rather fight the crowds and stand in lines to ski mid day on a holiday instead of waking up at 5am to get there before 9am and ski wide open slopes. It is supposed to warm up fast so I'm opting to leave at 8 and ski ( er umm, wait in lines) 11-3 with the unwashed masses instead of 9-1.. They have 4 hour flex tickets. I'm such a wuss!
 

Gettes

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Great thread. With family in tow my decisions are made quite differently, flying solo I'll drive through some conditions. Always try to time it so it's the best possible conditions but we all know fresh powder is quite seductive especially for those of us not in powder hotbeds.

I probably would re-think at least one of my teenage drives in a front wheel drive minivan when the drivers side wiper got ripped off about 30mins into the 3hr drive and I was looking through a tiny "clear" spot on the windshield to see the ruts on the road.

Now I have no problem dropping the plow off at the house when I wrap that up and beating feet for some NH powder. Having an '02 Silverado with about 500lbs in the back and studded winterforce tires makes for pretty smooth sailing. Then just hope not to get caught behind a plow convoy. I'll leave taking the train for someone else thanks.
 

crgildart

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Now I have no problem dropping the plow off at the house when I wrap that up and beating feet for some NH powder. Having an '02 Silverado with about 500lbs in the back and studded winterforce tires makes for pretty smooth sailing. Then just hope not to get caught behind a plow convoy. I'll leave taking the train for someone else thanks.

I have zero doubts about my own winter conditions capabilities.. It's simply the circumstance of being on the road when others not nearly as adequately equipped are also out there all over the place that has lead to me being more and more reluctant to go for it for all but the most promising opportunities.. Coming around a switchback going up or down and suddenly having to avoid someone in my lane (or both lanes) coming the opposite direction (often unintentionally) is a pretty bad scenario even with the best of the best of vehicle and tire combinations..
 

Gettes

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I have zero doubts about my own winter conditions capabilities.. It's simply the circumstance of being on the road when others not nearly as adequately equipped are also out there all over the place that has lead to me being more and more reluctant to go for it for all but the most promising opportunities.. Coming around a switchback going up or down and suddenly having to avoid someone in my lane (or both lanes) coming the opposite direction (often unintentionally) is a pretty bad scenario even with the best of the best of vehicle and tire combinations..

Well said and I agree. Those things are exacerbated in severe weather conditions but those same folks are always out there and in higher numbers in the nice weather(and maybe the severe weather will at least keep them from texting). That's why I like the left lane on the highway even when I'm not trying to pass people...figure it cuts the amount of a-holes next to me in half.
 

Ohioskier

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It seems like where I live the sight of even a dusting of snow brings out foolishness and people’s worst driving skills. I don’t typically drive in the storm to get skiing probably because of the other morons and normally we only get an inch or two of snow. Schools were cancelled Friday over the fear of getting snow and it didn’t even snow until school would have been out anyway. If it’s monday night and we have lessons we go no matter what other than that I let the morons wreck each other and be foolish.

One caveat is I don’t have much vertical to enjoy. 400 foot and a small ski area doesn’t have the payoff of what others here ski. I bet if there was double vertical and storms over 4-5 inches I would be more inclined to take chances.
 

Goose

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Well said and I agree. Those things are exacerbated in severe weather conditions but those same folks are always out there and in higher numbers in the nice weather(and maybe the severe weather will at least keep them from texting). That's why I like the left lane on the highway even when I'm not trying to pass people...figure it cuts the amount of a-holes next to me in half.

Driving in the left lane or even better said failing to keep right (regardless of the amount of lanes) unless passing is both a traffic maker and a danger. The "keep right" model makes for the most efficient and least dangerous highway travels. Danger as well as congestion (which in itself leads to danger) on the highways is caused more by people failing to stay right than speeding itself or nay other issue (besides texting). In fact speed limits could be increased substantially if people lived but the "keep right" model. The highways would be far safer while actually moving faster vs what they are now. And that doesn't mean stay out of the left lane but it means stay right. If there are 4 lanes, some people think just staying out of the 4th left lane is good enough. But the only thing driving in the 3rd of 4 lanes accomplishes is that one just turned a 4 lane highway now into 2 lanes and completely defeated the purpose of having a 4 laner in the first place.

In normal driving conditions,.....nowadays even the cheapest vehicles are so capable of driving at speed. Suspensions, tires, aerodynamics, and the overall vehicles themselves nowadays can easily drive 80/90 mph with no vibration, in total control, smooth, and sound as can be. This isn't the 70's anymore in that sense where people would lose control at that speed due to inadequate suspensions, tires, aerodynamics, etc,etc....Not all....but many highways are also built with wide lanes, smooth, gradual turns, etc.. These 50/60 mph limits are a joke on many of the highways and also given the safe vehicles of today. If people just lived by the keep right model not only could many highways have 80 mph speed limits but would be much safer with those higher limits with far less traffic congestion, and accidents than they are with the low speed limits..

Sorry, I had to rant, and Im not one at all to fly like batman everywhere I go on the roads either but its so ridiculous in this country and so misguided. And speed tickets are such a money maker no one is willing to admit what real safety is about. Keeping right. Instead they want the money so they play this game that driving at 80 is too dangerous when in reality if people kept right the limit can be 80 (on many the highways) and the roads would be much safer than the 55 they set just to be able to give more speeding tickets. The whole thing is a joke. Heck they don't even stress keeping right in many state DMV booklets or even teach it in some states. But some states do have it as law however its never enforced.
 

Crank

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When you are driving in a big storm, unless you have the road to yourself, one lane is always a lot cleaner (less snow) than the other. I stay in that lane unless someone is going super slow. Only then will I cautiously switch lanes to pass.

When driving an interstate in high traffic I often stay in the left lane. Not because i think it is fast but because I only have to worry about cars coming at me from one side.
 

fatbob

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Driving in the left lane or even better said failing to keep right (regardless of the amount of lanes) unless passing is both a traffic maker and a danger. The "keep right" model makes for the most efficient and least dangerous highway travels.

Your problem in the US is the sheer number of a$$hole drivers. People won't drive in the nearside lanefor fear they'll come up behind a slow moving truck (even where there are no trucks for miles) and then be boxed in as Lane 2 drivers wil NOT yield or have no concept of accomoodating other's movements. Then you have the cruise control victims in lanes 3&4 crusing a steady 65 even on a 70 or 75 interstate for whom ever steering from their lane is a effort too far. You only have to add the jackass tailgaters (yes I am overtaking this truck but you can see its a winding downgrade so I'm not flooring it for good reason) and the 4 lane weavers (anything to get there 30 sec earlier). Add in weather and I'm surprised you don't get more carnage.
 

coskigirl

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Well said and I agree. Those things are exacerbated in severe weather conditions but those same folks are always out there and in higher numbers in the nice weather(and maybe the severe weather will at least keep them from texting). That's why I like the left lane on the highway even when I'm not trying to pass people...figure it cuts the amount of a-holes next to me in half.

Don't camp in the left lane. There will always be someone faster than you so now they're forced to pass on the right which is even more dangerous.

http://www.autosavant.com/2008/08/28/the-american-plague-of-overtaking-on-the-right/
 

Chris Walker

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I guess it's relative for me. The 90-minute delay I had Friday night on my way up to Leadville (because traffic was stopped at the tunnel) to enjoy a beautiful weekend of racing at Ski Cooper was totally worth it.

The 10 minute delay I had driving to the office this morning was foolhardy and death-defying and I should have worked from home like the rest of my team.
 

Goose

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When driving an interstate in high traffic I often stay in the left lane. Not because i think it is fast but because I only have to worry about cars coming at me from one side.
Problem with that is cars will be coming up on you from on your more blind right side. And when the traffic picks up speed again you'll be slowing faster traffic and therefore causing them to pass in the right lanes.

The whole problem is that we are simply not educated enough to understand just how much safer the highways are when traffic follows a keep right model (far right) on most highways and pass left. There are sections of highway that go for miles near me with 4 and 5 lanes but you would never know it because people insist on staying left or even middle. This causes delays, forces passers to do so in the more right sided lanes, etc...and it all leads to dangerous roads.

Just look at the models of most European nations highways. It works. And it works on highways with high or even no speed limits. We (the US) have some the worst record as for highway accidents and deaths in the world and yet our speed limits are ridiculously low on many of them. And still we cant seem to get out of our own way. Keeping far right is a primary means to a goal of safe roads. I don't know when the powers that be will finally admit this but instead they rather let people keep dying in order to collect violations. You ever realize the times highway traffic has slowed for no apparent reason, people start passing left, all kinds of things happen and then just like that (snap) a few miles later its not there isn't any les traffic but its moving so freely again. Well, most those times its because an area was reached where an individual or a few individuals failed to keep right.

The studies on this has been done a hundred times over and its a fact that US highways are for more dangerous with the biggest reason being that we are so uneducated about the efficiency of keeping right. Many people don't even know it for being any sort of model at all. Its actually sad because its the biggest reason for all things bad on the highways.

Ever drive on a fairly or moderately empty highway? And with no immediate traffic Im in the right lane but then as I approach another vehicle who is in the middle lane or perhaps the 3rd of 4 lanes is going slower than me. I shouldn't have to cross 2 or 3 lanes to pass that person. That's where the danger comes in. that person should be on the right and I should only have to move over one lane to pass and then get back over. I shouldn't have to hit my break either (again more danger) and If someone behind me is going even faster they too can then simply move over one oir (if need be 2) lanes to pass the slower car and myself and then everyone gets back top the right. The other way that 3 or 4 lane road just became a 2 laner and not only defeats the congestion relief a 4 laner was suppose relive , but everything about it becomes a free for all and people start passing on the right, crossing too many lanes unnecessarily, driving in blind spots, hitting breaks, etc, etc... . and the whole things becomes dangerous all because people are not educated about how to efficiently drive on our highways.

My apologies I don't mean to turn this into a driving etiquettes thread but it amazes me today that we still in this country haven't yet been smart enough to make our roads so much safer. Instead they just keep enforcing low speed limits as though thats what gets it done and we keep (as we have forever) having among the most dangerous highways in the modern civilized world. When will they realize it hasn't worked because its not the answer. Or they do realize but refuse to give up the income which is the same as selling peoples lives and families out for violations revenue. Its really a sad shame.
 
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Gettes

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Haha...wow guess I'm not the only one who spends time thinking about this, gotta do something while stuck in traffic. I should have specified that my left lane comment is when the road is already congested(not quite full blown jam as I have different theories for that) and people can't really pass anymore. This is also what Crank was saying and is totally different than what you are describing Goose(which again I generally agree with) and no apologies necessary we're all just having a discussion. I always move over so people can pass if I am in the left lane(unless they are an ass rider then I may not be as courteous and in my opinion ass riders are the #1 cause of traffic and accidents). While living in Southern California I actually found it maddening that it seemed lanes had no bearing on speed, you never new which lane was going to be the "left" lane. I do find that generally people mind the left except to pass mantra around the North East a bit better.
 

SSSdave

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Here in California, world headquarters for creativity in bad driving habits, a serious common problem in right lanes of multi lane highways is they have often been painfully rutted by heavy vehicles that drive in right lanes. Exacerbating the issue is a lack of will with politicians to allocate funding to fix potholes and ruts on our vast system of roads and highways. And on winter snowy mountain highways the problem is much worse because because compounding the issue are highway snow removal vehicles especially bulldozers the monster shovels of which bouncing along road surfaces snags any pavement that has started to jostle loose. Accordingly on many of our unrepaired urban freeways, drivers in small vehicles avoid the slow lane lest their teeth shake loose requiring an expensive tortuous dentist visit.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-le-0215-sunday-cars-weight-20150215-story.html


The federal government has estimated that a 40-ton, 18-wheel truck causes the same damage as 9,600 midsize cars...
The additional registration fees that truck operators pay to the state don't come close to paying for the damage they inflict on our roads.

You can see a practical demonstration of these principles on our highways, where the fast lanes on the left generally are much smoother than the lanes on the right used by truck traffic. California should assess trucking fees that pay for the damage they cause to our roads and stop making the rest of us driving lightweight vehicles subsidize the trucking industry.
 
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KevinF

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The best setup is when you dont have a white knuckle drive on a powder day. In Northern Vermont between Stowe and Jay Peak this can happen quite a few times each winter. The setup is typically orographically enhanced upslope snow showers. This happened earlier this week on monday and tuesday when Jay had a 14inch 48hour total and less than 2 miles away the valley recieved a dusting. Best of both worlds, easy drive and fresh snow that typically gets very little attention from the weather outlets as it effects such a small population.

Yeah, usually the mountain and the surrounding villages get very different weather, but I had a memorable drive from Jay to Stowe in a snowstorm a few years back. When I left Jay it was snowing, but the snowfall rate picked up as I crossed the valley to Stowe (where I was staying). That's the drive that hammered home that there is absolutely nothing between Jay Peak and Morrisville... I was pretty glad to see civilization again. :)

The roads weren't terribly slippery... the scariest thing was that there was NOBODY else out there. I kept thinking "If I go off the road, nobody is going to find me for a looonnnnngggggg time".
 

François Pugh

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Here in Ontario Canada, the problem of the left lane bandit and failure to keep right except to pass is exacerbated by the highway design. Far too often the right lane will trap you into an exit, so people avoid the right lane, and avoid the right two lanes on 8+ lane highways.

Typically in severe night time snow storms, there is not enough traffic on the road to make left lane bandits or failure to keep right an issue. Unfortunately it is night time snow storms where visibility (meaning lack of same and multi-minute sections of can't see the end of your hood while driving even at a too high speed) is the biggest problem.
 

Goose

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Here in California, world headquarters for creativity in bad driving habits, a serious common problem in right lanes of multi lane highways is they have often been painfully rutted by heavy vehicles that drive in right lanes. Exacerbating the issue is a lack of will with politicians to allocate funding to fix potholes and ruts on our vast system of roads and highways. And on winter snowy mountain highways the problem is much worse because because compounding the issue are highway snow removal vehicles especially bulldozers the monster shovels of which bouncing along road surfaces snags any pavement that has started to jostle loose. Accordingly on many of our unrepaired urban freeways, drivers in small vehicles avoid the slow lane lest their teeth shake loose requiring an expensive tortuous dentist visit.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-le-0215-sunday-cars-weight-20150215-story.html


The federal government has estimated that a 40-ton, 18-wheel truck causes the same damage as 9,600 midsize cars...
The additional registration fees that truck operators pay to the state don't come close to paying for the damage they inflict on our roads.

You can see a practical demonstration of these principles on our highways, where the fast lanes on the left generally are much smoother than the lanes on the right used by truck traffic. California should assess trucking fees that pay for the damage they cause to our roads and stop making the rest of us driving lightweight vehicles subsidize the trucking industry.
But to think about this a bit deeper than what the initial logic might dictate. We get most if not all our goods via trucks. If they tax trucks and/or raise truck tolls, that will of course cost more for the independent truck operators and of course also all the freight delivery companies. In turn they then have to charge the suppliers more money to deliver the goods and products, then those suppliers, makers, producers of goods have to charge more for the products. So in the end we would pay anyway because whatever we buy would cost that much more.

The trucks are our life line for everything we need and utilize in or existence. How do you think the skis you snap into got to you? Or how the food got in your refrigerator at home? We have an obligation to maintain our infrastructure. An obligation to ourselves to make for efficient roads, highways, bridges, tunnels, airports and docks. An obligation to maintain our life lines as efficiently as possible. It should be priority imo.
If that all crumbles (which it is in many places) then we suffer. Suffer with traffic , fuel, accidents, delays, and over all that leads to much higher costs in several different ways even indirectly like not even to mention higher insurance costs. The better and more efficient our infrastructure allows all to move along the easier and cheaper our products and goods can be supplied as well as other indirectly related expenses. The whole thing is far too important and foolish not to spend that money imo.

And honesty on another note.... "efficiently move along" would imo also include the keep right model as part of that efficiency. The too in addition to the infrastructure itself being up to date is safer and the safer our roads and highways, the better for us all in many ways including economically.

Again I apologize for turning the focus of the thread away from the question of how worthy is traveling in bad conditions to catch good ski conditions......but if you think about that too its not like it has no relevance at all because our drives even in poor conditions would also be safer too. So there is actually just a bit of relevance here :)
 
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crgildart

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Woke up at the usual work day 7am today.. Sat around and had some tea and watched the morning news.. Left for the 3 hour ski mountain commute at 8:15. Arrived around 11am... Got the last parking spot at the farthest public lot, maybe a half mile away and over 500 feet down.. Brutal walk to the ticket window had me huffing and puffing big time..

But, there were NO LINES on all but one lift ALL DAY. People were all sitting inside sipping hot cocoa by the fire I guess.. Other than the long walk it was a WIN! I'll take two more hours of sleep over a shorter walk every time :) Plus, since it was a show gun day there was MORE fresh snow at 11 than there was at 9..
 

Goose

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Woke up at the usual work day 7am today.. Sat around and had some tea and watched the morning news.. Left for the 3 hour ski mountain commute at 8:15. Arrived around 11am... Got the last parking spot at the farthest public lot, maybe a half mile away and over 500 feet down.. Brutal walk to the ticket window had me huffing and puffing big time..

But, there were NO LINES on all but one lift ALL DAY. People were all sitting inside sipping hot cocoa by the fire I guess.. Other than the long walk it was a WIN! I'll take two more hours of sleep over a shorter walk every time :) Plus, since it was a show gun day there was MORE fresh snow at 11 than there was at 9..
3hr drive for a ski day is a bit too much imo for a single day. Im glad you had a good day on the slopes :) but for me I draw the line at about 2hrs. (maybe 2-1/2) Anything more and its an over nighter..lol
Yea that walk can be tiring espec if with a fam. I 3hr drive, a loooong walk and I wouldda been beat before even getting the skis on. Maybe sipping cocoa with the others lol.
I commend you for the effforts. That's dedication.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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There was a time in my life that I drove each weekend day up to the Poconos and back home again same day. 2.25 hours each way. I was young. Couldn't have done much further then after a day of skiing, wouldn't have survived the drive home. Now I think my max would be 1.5 and I certainly wouldn't do it very often.
 

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