The Skinny on Skinning

[ScottB]

There is lots of minutia with this gear. Ignore it till your ready to buy, it will all be different by then anyway.

Since I am buying soon, I did the deep dive and still haven't sorted it all out. The boot thing is what really makes it complicated. I love Lange's and they make a boot (XT Free 130) that has walk mode, pin inserts in the toe, compatible with all down hill bindings (I think), skis just like a good downhill boot, and is priced normal. Only down side is it doesn't have a rockered sole (it that is a big deal for you, although you can change the sole) and its a bit heavy for a AT boot at 1800 grams. I am looking at boots roughly 1 pound (300-400 grams) lighter per boot. I will have to decide if I want this new boot to work on my downhill quiver and how light I really want to go.

My thinking is I will use my skinning ski or my tree alpine ski on days when I might do side country and inbounds skiing. I want the new AT boots to work with both of those skis so I don't have to change boots, just skis. It will obviously work with the AT ski, my tree ski is a Liberty Origin 96 with Tyrollia Aattack 13 demo bindings. I think the demo binds are compatible with AT soles, they have an adjustable friction pad height. Will have to confirm this before buying.

 

[neonorchid]

FWIW,

Lange XT 130 Freetour 40º range of motion, 3lbs 15oz (26.5).
https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/snow-sports/backcountry-ski-boots/lange-xt-freetour-130
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2016-2017-lange-xt-130-freetour-lv

No thanks, not for me.

Currently interested in:

Tecnica Zero G Tour Pro 55º, 2.8lbs 1310g (26.5)
Soles: Rockered, full Vibram rubber (ISO 9523)
Binding Compatibility: All “tech” / pin bindings; MNC Bindings

Scarpa Maestrale RS 2 60º, 2.84lbs 1290g (25.0)
Soles: Non-replaceable, rockered Vibram rubber
Binding Compatibility:
pin-style / “tech” binding “MNC” bindings (e.g., Salomon Warden; Marker Duke / Griffon ID, etc.)
Tech Fittings Dynafit-certified “Quick Step-In” inserts

 

[ScottB]

Great reference to the test report. Thanks. Top 4 are the ones I am interested. Agree on the new Tec Zero G Tour Pro, might be the best for weight and downhill performance. (the new one is around 1300 grams)

 

[Primoz]

@ScottB nice graph, but is there one of same boots also for "uphill performance"? I need new pair too, and would like to see also uphill performance and make sort of selection combining both of them Uphill part is also quite important for me, as if it's just downhill performance then my Rossi race boots are quite cool for that, even on pow skis

 

[Crank]

I would think uphill performance has a lot to do with how much the boots weigh and not a lot else?

 

[davjr96]

The range of motion of the cuff plays a pretty big part in uphill performance. Longer strides are more efficient and if your ankle is prevented from rotated they are near impossible. Some of the more skimo focused boots (Dynafit come to mind) actually have removable tongs on the boot to give the greatest possible range of motion on the ups.

 

[jmeb]

I would think uphill performance has a lot to do with how much the boots weigh and not a lot else?

Weight, ROM, friction in the pivots, liner, fit, ease of transitioning, all matter a lot for touring.

Range of Motion (ROM) in the forward direction is very important for uphill. ROM backwards is very important for rolling or flat terrain. Having a boot that fits for touring -- which is a different fit for downhill -- is critical. Amount of friction in the pivots makes a big difference -- I've been in a boot that had a large "ROM" but it was a pain to move. Liners also have to have ROM, which many don't and then you have to overcome the strength of the liner. Having a boot that switches between ski and walk mode quickly becomes important for moving efficiently in the mountains.

 

[neonorchid]

Weight, ROM, friction in the pivots, liner, fit, ease of transitioning, all matter a lot for touring.
Having a boot that fits for touring -- which is a different fit for downhill -- is critical.

Primary reason why I don't buy the Alpine boot that Tours concept, and believe me when I say I wanted to. Too compromised.

 

[ScottB]

@ScottB nice graph, but is there one of same boots also for "uphill performance"? I need new pair too, and would like to see also uphill performance and make sort of selection combining both of them Uphill part is also quite important for me, as if it's just downhill performance then my Rossi race boots are quite cool for that, even on pow skis

go to the link provided by neonorchid, it is a review of last years AT boots with lots of graphs, and they do have an uphill graph.

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/snow-sports/backcountry-ski-boots/lange-xt-freetour-130

 

[Crank]

I think that ,much like alpine skiing, a boots fit is probably the single most important factor both uphill and down.

 

[Primoz]

I think that ,much like alpine skiing, a boots fit is probably the single most important factor both uphill and down.

It's overrated Boots fit can be done later, at least with alpine, where plastic is a bit different and whole lot thicker. I managed to work on my race boots to fit me perfectly no matter what company, model and shape they were, and my feet are anything but perfect (ok they are not totally out of proportions either). It just takes a bit of work and time. With touring boots things are a bit different, as plastic is worse and thinner so you have less room to work with, but then again, liner is much thicker so plastic shell doesn't need to fit perfectly on your feet to still have great feel of the boot. So personally I never bother trying boot for ages. In alpine I take whatever I get for free from friends still in WC racing, and I make it work good for me, for touring I try to get as much info as possible how certain boot works (for downhill and for uphill) and do the rest myself. And until now I never had issues with end result, even though first skiing or two might be super painful if I didn't do work good enough through summer

 

[neonorchid]

It's overrated Boots fit can be done later, at least with alpine, where plastic is a bit different and whole lot thicker. I managed to work on my race boots to fit me perfectly no matter what company, model and shape they were, and my feet are anything but perfect (ok they are not totally out of proportions either). It just takes a bit of work and time. With touring boots things are a bit different, as plastic is worse and thinner so you have less room to work with, but then again, liner is much thicker so plastic shell doesn't need to fit perfectly on your feet to still have great feel of the boot. So personally I never bother trying boot for ages. In alpine I take whatever I get for free from friends still in WC racing, and I make it work good for me, for touring I try to get as much info as possible how certain boot works (for downhill and for uphill) and do the rest myself. And until now I never had issues with end result, even though first skiing or two might be super painful if I didn't do work good enough through summer

Happy to read that been working out for you.

 

[wyowindrunner]

Taken early May. After GT closed. Lotta huffing and puffing on nothing fancy- Sollie AT10's on some old pocket rockets with black diamond skins and some ranger vacuum 120's with the walk/ski mode. Maybe half a dozen others on the mountain but not where i was. The climb was worth it.

 

[LegacyGT]

I would suggest not overthinking it. Rent some gear or even better check out eBay or some tent sales over the summer....you may be able to get a full used setup for about what you'd spend on a day's rental. The trickiest bit may be the skins. Skins are purchased based on ski length and width and then the get cut to the shape of the ski. As such, they are less interchangeable than some other equipment. They aren't cheap but you can find them on sale for less than the price of a lift ticket so they pay for themselves.

Be honest with yourself. If you're trying this out at a resort, you will likely go up once, ski down and maybe repeat. That's about it. This is not a tour. It's a long slog to the top and then a ski down, likely on groomed terrain. Your uphill climb will likely be consistently uphill and will be hard for most of the way.,,,no matter what gear you're using. Shaving weight will make it easier but it will still not be easy. I'd suggest some sort of frame AT binding. It will be heavier but it will also be close to what you're used to in terms of use and downhill performance/safety.

I do some uphill trips at a resort when I want to go before the lifts open or to avoid lift lines on the most crowded days. I took up telemark about 10 years ago after buying some used skis/boots at a tent sale. After a few years I bought skins for that setup. Boots had a walk mode but bindings did not have free pivot. Uphill climbs were a chore. But I loved it anyway. I've since moved to new telemark equipment with a free pivot mode for the binding. Makes the uphill much easier.

In addition to the ski equipment, also think about what you're going to wear. Layer up and plan to wear few layers on the way up. Sweating through is likely no matter how cold it is. You'll want to add some layers for the way down. If you're at a resort, the summit lodge is your friend.

Also, prepare to be mocked. You will hear the phrase "you're going the wrong way" shouted at you at least three times per ascent. Prepare a witty retort in advance or just ignore it.

Good luck with the gear search and enjoy.

 

[bjohansson]

I do all manner of uphill. Fitness laps at a ski area (Magic), skinning at closed ski areas, and true backcountry all over Vermont. Come to Magic. The mountain rents salomon touring gear (boots, skis, skins, bindings) and has instructors that can teach you everything you need to know to get started in one lap. We even have an uphill trail that keeps you away from the uninitiated heckling masses (just kidding, Magic is well-known for its skinning culture). It's a one-stop shop so to speak.

I find skinning up to be far less strenuous than snowshoeing on the up and there's no comparison on the down. First rule of thumb on layering: you should be cold when you start or you will spend too much time shedding layers after just a few steps uphill.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I do all manner of uphill. Fitness laps at a ski area (Magic), skinning at closed ski areas, and true backcountry all over Vermont. Come to Magic. The mountain rents salomon touring gear (boots, skis, skins, bindings) and has instructors that can teach you everything you need to know to get started in one lap. We even have an uphill trail that keeps you away from the uninitiated heckling masses (just kidding, Magic is well-known for its skinning culture). It's a one-stop shop so to speak.

I find skinning up to be far less strenuous than snowshoeing on the up and there's no comparison on the down. First rule of thumb on layering: you should be cold when you start or you will spend too much time shedding layers after just a few steps uphill.

I love magic. We are actually looking at a slopeside condo there this weekend. I sooo want to take that skinning class. That 2 hour getting started class sounds wonderful. Im definitely going to do that this winter. I have been obsessed with trying this for a couple years now. If we get this condo, I'll be right there and it will be even more of an incentive. I've a friend who teaches boarding at magic and has a condo there too. I've spent plenty of time at the bar lol and i'm stoked to get into the culture because i love the vibe. I teach at bromley and lots of people skin up there too. Im just so excited for winter Maybe we'll run into each other sometime.

 

[neonorchid]

I
_

Come to Magic. The mountain rents salomon touring gear (boots, skis, skins, bindings) and has instructors that can teach you everything you need to know to get started in one lap. We even have an uphill trail that keeps you away from the uninitiated heckling masses (just kidding, Magic is well-known for its skinning culture). It's a one-stop shop so to speak.

Do you know which Salomon bindings, i.e., pin-tech and or frame? Also $50 half day or $70 day rental of AT/ High-Performance Ski seems steep. Are there any local ski shops in the general area which rent AT skis with pin-tech bindings?

 

[bjohansson]

Do you know which Salomon bindings, i.e., pin-tech and or frame? Also $50 half day or $70 day rental of AT/ High-Performance Ski seems steep. Are there any local ski shops in the general area which rent AT skis with pin-tech bindings?

I don't think there's another shop that rents AT gear south of Killington (Basecamp Outfitters). Pretty sure the bindings at Magic are Guardians. The price does seem a little high but they had to pay pro-form for the gear, no bulk discounts, low volume rentals so they have to make up the costs.

 

[bjohansson]

I love magic. We are actually looking at a slopeside condo there this weekend. I sooo want to take that skinning class. That 2 hour getting started class sounds wonderful. Im definitely going to do that this winter. I have been obsessed with trying this for a couple years now. If we get this condo, I'll be right there and it will be even more of an incentive. I've a friend who teaches boarding at magic and has a condo there too. I've spent plenty of time at the bar lol and i'm stoked to get into the culture because i love the vibe. I teach at bromley and lots of people skin up there too. Im just so excited for winter Maybe we'll run into each other sometime.

Which snowboard instructor? I know just about everyone that skis/boards regularly at Magic. Even more important, I know all of the bartenders very well

 

[Doug Briggs]

Do you know which Salomon bindings, i.e., pin-tech and or frame? Also $50 half day or $70 day rental of AT/ High-Performance Ski seems steep. Are there any local ski shops in the general area which rent AT skis with pin-tech bindings?

The price may not be conducive to rental, but they aren't high based on the market. We used to rent demo skis alone for $50.00/day. There was a break for multiple days. Adding high end boots and poles would make $70/day within the norm or even low.