The Skinny on Skinning

[surfsnowgirl]

Thank you guys, @ScottB brain dump anytime you like, all good stuff. Lots of think about and I absolutely want to get my butt to bolton valley. I'm thinking of pre metal Santa anas for my AT skis but again, not buying anything until I do it. I get a pretty heavy discount on boots so if/when boots are bought it shouldn't be too painful. All this stuff is very fun to think about.

 

[Ken_R]

I have 2 pairs of skis that are AT capable. One with a frame binding and another with a tech. The frame binding is not that bad for touring if you have a good boot. Inside the resort they work just as well as an alpine binding as they should. They are indeed heavy and for long tours the AT binding is just worlds better (Light weight, simple to clean / repair if needed and just tours better). I did demo the Salomon Shift binding on a pair of 2019 QST 106's and liked them. But, the setup is still noticeably heavier than a typical mid range AT setup and more complex but they felt just like a good alpine binding inside the resort.

One thing I should mention is that the frame binding does alter a tad the flex of the ski but if you can go with a short frame size then the effect is less.

[ my skis are Moment Deathwish 190cm with L size Marker Barons and Black Crows Navis Freebird 185cm with Dynafit Radical 2.0 FT's ]

Agree with the skins comment, the grippier the better to start with. You also should be a pretty good skier since conditions in the backcountry are usually variable and there is really little margin for error (trees, obstacles etc.). Moving out there on snow is VERY slow going if anything goes wrong. It is no joke out there.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I'll be rereading through this thread if/when I'm ready to purchase bindings that's for sure. I'm a pretty good skier, however, I must confess I have no desire to hit the backcountry, at least at this point. i want to skin up and ski down the same trails I ski down from the chair. Maybe my backcountry desires will come out down the road but that's not what I want to start out doing.

 

[Ken_R]

I'll be rereading through this thread if/when I'm ready to purchase bindings that's for sure. I'm a pretty good skier, however, I must confess I have no desire to hit the backcountry, at least at this point. i want to skin up and ski down the same trails I ski down from the chair. Maybe my backcountry desires will come out down the road but that's not what I want to start out doing.

That is a great way to start. The quality of 100% natural snow that has not been skied and or groomed to death is eye opening!

 

[surfsnowgirl]

That is a great way to start. The quality of 100% natural snow that has not been skied and or groomed to death is eye opening!

Thanks. It made sense to start out this way. I'm sure all that glorious untracked snow is like crack once you get on it. I'm sure once I get hooked on that it'll be a game changer. I know desires change. I used to only prefer to ski groomed trails. Now I'm hooked on bumps and ungroomed snow after a powder day or springtime and can ski this stuff all day long. I'm also getting into trees. If you told me I'd be skiing this stuff 2 years ago I would have said you were nuts.

 

[jmeb]

. Its also arguably a little safer than other tech bindings

Arguably it's a lot safer than other tech bindings. Since lateral release at the toe is what saves the tibia.

 

[ScottB]

That is a great way to start. The quality of 100% natural snow that has not been skied and or groomed to death is eye opening!

I think this could be taken two different ways. I think fresh, untracked power is the same inbounds or out. I have found 3 feet of fresh untracked power at Wildcat in the woods and it was a blast, just like early morning runs on a weekday after a storm. My guess at what he means is the snow can be incredibly horrible in the backcountry if it is not fresh. Any rain or melt thaw will wreak havoc on the skiability of natural terrain. I live between an ocean front park and a wildlife preservation in Massachusetts. I love to cross country ski. The very large and open park is only skiable for a short window after a fresh snow. It gets iced over really quick, just by the sun melting the top layer. The woods across the street has a longer window of skiability, since the trees block a lot of the sun. Any rain or melt will ruin the conditions in the woods, though. The woods actually get a lot of foot traffic from dog walkers, and that hurts soft snow, but helps break up any icing that occurs. Groomers at a ski area are so much more consistent its not even a fair comparison. Being up at altitude would make a big difference, I would bet, but I have no first hand experience.

 

[Ken_R]

I think this could be taken two different ways. I think fresh, untracked power is the same inbounds or out. I have found 3 feet of fresh untracked power at Wildcat in the woods and it was a blast, just like early morning runs on a weekday after a storm. My guess at what he means is the snow can be incredibly horrible in the backcountry if it is not fresh. Any rain or melt thaw will wreak havoc on the skiability of natural terrain. I live between an ocean front park and a wildlife preservation in Massachusetts. I love to cross country ski. The very large and open park is only skiable for a short window after a fresh snow. It gets iced over really quick, just by the sun melting the top layer. The woods across the street has a longer window of skiability, since the trees block a lot of the sun. Any rain or melt will ruin the conditions in the woods, though. The woods actually get a lot of foot traffic from dog walkers, and that hurts soft snow, but helps break up any icing that occurs. Groomers at a ski area are so much more consistent its not even a fair comparison. Being up at altitude would make a big difference, I would bet, but I have no first hand experience.

Oh yeah.. But I live in Colorado and mid winter in the backcountry powder lasts for daaaayyysss after a storm. Specially in choice spots (sheltered, north facing, high altitude) Inside the resort? About 30-90min on a good day.

No rain here above 10k feet mid winter.

 

[ScottB]

Ok, you meant it in the "good" way that SSgirl assumed. I am jealous, but I can swim in the ocean across the street to cool off in the summer. I have been doing a lot of that recently.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Makes sense about the bindings and boots. I'd be open to trying both options. However, given my feet issues I think I'd be more open to hiking up in snowshoes than my alpine boots. Never cross country skied either. I love walking down ski mountains in the summer so why not give it a try going up hill. Here's to trying new things.

I'm just reading through and commenting as I go, so this may have been stated:

If you hike up in snowshoes and winter (not your ski) boots, you'll have to put your ski boots on at the top to ski down, right? Putting ski boots on in an natural, outdoor setting can be challenging at best, impossible at worst. It is akin to putting your boots on after leaving them in the car on a cold night.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I'm just reading through and commenting as I go, so this may have been stated:

If you hike up in snowshoes and winter (not your ski) boots, you'll have to put your ski boots on at the top to ski down, right? Putting ski boots on in an natural, outdoor setting can be challenging at best, impossible at worst. It is akin to putting your boots on after leaving them in the car on a cold night.

That is definitely true. I'm not planning on necessarily doing this early/mid season when it's likely to be cold so I don't think I'd have a hard time throwing my boots on up top since it'll likely be a little warmer out. With my current boots I often have to reset my right boot so I'll plop down anywhere, take my boot off and put it back on. I would like to try skinning too. I want to try it all . I'll likely start with a typical skinning setup since that's what I'll be renting. I don't even own a pair of snowshoes but I hope to change that this year.

I'm trying to convince my SO to buy a magic mountain trail side condo so that I'll "right there" to make playing even easier.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Additional boots and snowshoes are just that. Additional gear to carry. Transitions are faster without having to switch boots and sometimes you want a fast transition, such as getting headed down in advance of a fast approaching storm.

Skinning is arguably the best approach to hiking up and skiing down. You'll certainly have fun no matter which way you go, though.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Additional boots and snowshoes are just that. Additional gear to carry. Transitions are faster without having to switch boots and sometimes you want a fast transition, such as getting headed down in advance of a fast approaching storm.

Skinning is arguably the best approach to hiking up and skiing down. You'll certainly have fun no matter which way you go, though.

I'm excited and am definitely interested in carrying as little as possible. What the hell are transitions? Lots of good reading above, maybe I missed this? If I didn't have to switch boots that would be dandy.

 

[jmeb]

What the hell are transitions?

Transition is just what it sounds like -- transitioning from uphill mode to downhill mode. A novice skinner is liable to take 10 minutes removing skis, skins, strapping up boots, fiddling around. An experience tourer can rip skins while still in their skis, shove them inside their front jacket where they'll stay warm, switch boots to downhill and be ready in 2min. A skimo racer can switch out in <30seconds.


A splitboarder or snowshower? A good time for the experienced skinner to have a beer and wait.

 

[neonorchid]

What the hell are transitions?

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2018/03/backcountry-skiing-effective-transitions.html

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Transition is just what it sounds like -- transitioning from uphill mode to downhill mode. A novice skinner is liable to take 10 minutes removing skis, skins, strapping up boots, fiddling around. An experience tourer can rip skins while still in their skis, shove them inside their front jacket where they'll stay warm, switch boots to downhill and be ready in 2min. A skimo racer can switch out in <30seconds.


A splitboarder or snowshower? A good time for the experienced skinner to have a beer and wait.

Now that's impressive. I'm due for new ski boots in the next couple of years so perhaps, just perhaps if I decide I like this skinning thing I should consider a transition boot then?.

 

[neonorchid]

Now that's impressive. I'm due for new ski boots in the next couple of years so perhaps, just perhaps if I decide I like this skinning thing I should consider a transition boot then?.

I don't know whats on the horizon for dual duty walk mode equiped alpine boots, at present I gave up on the concept. Besides, I always pack the ski boots in my carry on and am still allowed a boot bag with the ski bag to bring the extra pair, whichever would be more for secondary use on a trip.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I will ask Nick my bootfitter when I go see him in October what his thoughts are. I've 102 days on my current boots and will probably have 155-160 on them after next season. I need a new base put on one boot, forget what it's called, the plastic bottom of the boot. In addition maybe the walk mode could help me when I'm teaching as I tend to unbuckle my boots if I'm working on the beginner hill. If I end up having to have to have 2 pair of boots then so be it.

 

[jmeb]

It's not a "transition" boot -- just FYI. It's a boot with an uphill/touring mode. Lots of boots have them now, but how good they are varies a ton.

Also consider there is a matrix of various boot sole norms now: Alpine, Grip Walk, and touring. I don't see much reason for buying a new boot that isn't at least Grip Walk (unless you're seriously high performance), except that you have to also have GW compatible alpine bindings.

If you want to use a real touring binding aka ones with pins, you also need inserts. There are some boots that are total do-it-all boots, like the Dabello Lupo TI, Tecnica Cochise, K2 Pinnacle, and Atomic Hawx Ult Xtd.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

It's not a "transition" boot -- just FYI. It's a boot with an uphill/touring mode. Lots of boots have them now, but how good they are varies a ton.

Also consider there is a matrix of various boot sole norms now: Alpine, Grip Walk, and touring. I don't see much reason for buying a new boot that isn't at least Grip Walk (unless you're seriously high performance), except that you have to also have GW compatible alpine bindings.

If you want to use a real touring binding aka ones with pins, you also need inserts. There are some boots that are total do-it-all boots, like the Dabello Lupo TI, Tecnica Cochise, K2 Pinnacle, and Atomic Hawx Ult Xtd.

Gotcha, thanks. I don't think I want to go the gripwalk route if I have to have GW compatible bindings because I tend to change out my quiver quite a bit and I just don't want to deal with that. Soo...many......details. I don't want to get overwhelmed so I think I'll file much of this information away until I decide I'm serious and then I'll want to get into all this minutia. Right now I just want to demo, take a class and try it and see if it's fun for me.