The Skinny on Skinning

[ScottB]

Jmeb,

Good post, I agree with what you are saying. Reliability is ultra important if going out of the resort.

I hadn't heard about the pre-release issues. It doesn't surprise me that much, though. Since I change boots that I use in the shifts (even slightly different BSL's) I have set them up numerous times myself. The first couple of times I screwed up the AFD height adjustment and had the toe of the boot caught under a plastic block on the toe piece instead of resting on the rollered toe wings. Without a picture this won't make much sense. I posted in another thread that I will add some pictures, so this gives me another reason to do so.

In the back country you need to be self reliant, so I am a little surprised Salomon doesn't have any video's out about how to set these up properly and adjust them. I went and looked online for a video and found info on how to transition them, but it said take them to your shop for adjustment.

 

[ScottB]

Here is an article that covers the issues with shifts. I have experienced all except the ski brake popping back up. I guess I press it hard enough. I personally haven't pre-released, but I am a very smooth skier and don't bash all that much. I solved all the issues on my own by figuring things out, but this article is very good and will save time.

https://www.newschoolers.com/news/r...bindings-Fritschi-Tecton-Salomon-Atomic-Shift

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Here is an article that covers the issues with shifts. I have experienced all except the ski brake popping back up. I guess I press it hard enough. I personally haven't pre-released, but I am a very smooth skier and don't bash all that much. I solved all the issues on my own by figuring things out, but this article is very good and will save time.

https://www.newschoolers.com/news/r...bindings-Fritschi-Tecton-Salomon-Atomic-Shift

I did pop out once or twice when I think I would have stayed in on a Pivot binding and I am sure I would have preferred to stay in, so I think that counts as a pre-release.

While shifts are not perfect consensus seems to be they offer the best release-ability + retention you seem to be able to get on touring bindings right now.

I am aware I could make sure my skis never come off by locking pin bindings, but that has other issues.

 

[jmeb]

I did pop out once or twice when I think I would have stayed in on a Pivot binding and I am sure I would have preferred to stay in, so I think that counts as a pre-release.

While shifts are not perfect consensus seems to be they offer the best release-ability + retention you seem to be able to get on touring bindings right now.

I am aware I could make sure my skis never come off by locking pin bindings, but that has other issues.

"Pre-release" is a hard thing to pin down. In general it could mean anytime you release when you wish you didn't. But it also is commonly used to mean a binding releasing when it shouldn't have -- as in the binding misfunctions.

In your case, expecting the same level of retention from a Shift and Pivot when set to the same DIN is unlikely. Although they should both pop off at XXX torque value, the Shift heel has approx 1/3rd the elasticity in the heel than the Pivot which has the longest elastic travel on the market.

 

[Ken_R]

Awesome video on the Tecton:

 

[Rod9301]

I have an issue with saying the shifts are safer than other pin bindings, specifically the mtn, which i consider currently to be the best binding available.

There is safety when you fall and the binding releases.

But equally important, if not more so (at least in my case) if when you fall because the binding releases.

Since all of us ski more conservatively in the backcountry, falls are very uncommon.

So, imo, a fall caused by a binding pre releasing is much more dangerous, assuming you are on somewhat steep terrain.

I skied at least 40 days in the backcountry this year, and i haven't fallen once.

But many of these days, if not most, were in steep terrain, where a binding pre release would have VERY unpleasant results. And by the way, i would not trust any other pin binding to not pre release, except the mtn and the g3 ion, because both have pretty strong springs in the toes.

So you need to be careful how you define safety.

If a binding is prone to pre release, it can happen much more often in the bc than a fall caused by any other reasons.

 

[Rod9301]

And btw, Cody Townsend skied the shifts only in the early videos, an the mtn on every video since.

Maybe it's because they are lighter, or maybe he feels safer on them.

And weight is a safety feature as well, even if you have a short tour, if something happens, it's a lot safer if you can move fast, whether weather is moving in, or someone is hurt and you need to get help.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

And btw, Cody Townsend skied the shifts only in the early videos, an the mtn on every video since.

Maybe it's because they are lighter, or maybe he feels safer on them.

You don't need to guess about this. He made a video explaining how he's thinking about it:


See minute 2:50 to 4:30 or so. Sorry if my sarcasm wasn't clear...

I'm not arguing MTN bindings are bad - I have zero experience and, in fact, you have convinced me if I buy a touring only set up I will put MTN bindings on them. I just don't get why you hate on the Shift (unless you work for Marker or something ).

 

[Brian Finch]

I had subpar Shift experiences. I think skinning is an odd taste. I’m still trying to love it.

 

[Ken_R]

I had subpar Shift experiences. I think skinning is an odd taste. I’m still trying to love it.

The gear does affect your experience, a LOT. My first was pretty bad. Now that I have my gear more dialed (it is always evolving though) going uphill is MUCH more pleasant.

 

[James]

What about the Fritschi Vipec TitanTecton?

 

[Rod9301]

Good binding.

 

[jmeb]

What about the Fritschi Vipec Titan?

*Tecton.

Anything about it specifically?

It offers the closest comparison to the Shift on the market -- it has a alpine style heel, and lateral release in the toe. It is the only other binding with those two features. It is not MNC -- so no alpine boots ever. It is also about 300g lighter per binding.

IMHO it is the best skiing pin-binding besides the Shift. The lateral elasticity in the toe offers some dampening (unlike say the Kingpin), and the alpine heel makes it feel more powerful than non-alpine styles like Dynafit offerings, G3 Ion, or Vipec.

It is also much easier to switch between alpine and touring modes than the Shift, and has two heel risers.

The toe unit has also been through 3 or 4 variations now and has gotten pretty dialed. I haven't heard of many concerns with the heel either (unlike the Kingpin).

 

[James]

*Tecton.

Anything about it specifically?

It offers the closest comparison to the Shift on the market -- it has a alpine style heel, and lateral release in the toe. It is the only other binding with those two features. It is not MNC -- so no alpine boots ever. It is also about 300g lighter per binding.

IMHO it is the best skiing pin-binding besides the Shift. The lateral elasticity in the toe offers some dampening (unlike say the Kingpin), and the alpine heel makes it feel more powerful than non-alpine styles like Dynafit offerings, G3 Ion, or Vipec.

It is also much easier to switch between alpine and touring modes than the Shift, and has two heel risers.

The toe unit has also been through 3 or 4 variations now and has gotten pretty dialed. I haven't heard of many concerns with the heel either (unlike the Kingpin).

Is the positive skiing because of the way the plastic pieces interlock the heel? Normal pin bindings there's a gap under the boot heel? Ie, you're suspended on the pins?

Tecton Review

 

[Analisa]

@James - yep, that and best in class elastic travel for tech bindings also means it can be skied hard without as much concern for pre-releasing.

Also, glad you found a Martin review - he runs phenomenal shop & guiding operation.

 

[jmeb]

@James — no heel gap (under or behind), downward pressure by the heel piece are the two biggest contributors. Then maybe the power-inserts or whatever they call them alongside the lack of horizontal release in the heel.

I say this based on skiing:
- bindings with a heel gap and no downward pressure (radicals)
- bindings with no heel gap and no downward pressure (vipecs)
- bindings with no heel gap and downward pressure but with horizontal release in the heel (kingpin)

 

[Brian Finch]

The gear does affect your experience, a LOT. My first was pretty bad. Now that I have my gear more dialed (it is always evolving though) going uphill is MUCH more pleasant.

One of the items I found this year was ‘kicker skins’. They go on much better & can fit in your pockets. The added benefit is that they allow a small degree of glide to occur.

 

[jmills115]

Surfsnowgirl,

Not be be a PITA, but as a fellow New Enlander, I feel the need to chime in and say you are making a poor choice. You have much better options based on what you have said in your earlier posts. With the gear you have your best decision for now is:

Buy a used backpack that can be used for ski touring in the future, put your boots in it, strap your skis to it, and hike up in your hiking boots. Change to alpine gear when at the top and ski down. Total cost for now: about $50-100 or less for the pack. Why? doing any skinning in Alpine boots sucks

I posted to @Brian Finch and @surfsnowgirl On a PM after reading this thread and came to this post and decided to share.
My skiing partner, mrsjmills started a conversation that was confusing to me regarding a ski budget and my doubling it this year after I mentioned a touring setup a few weeks back.
Reading this thread I looked into renting snowshoes at REI since there is a little snow remaining at Alta. I made my first attempt uphill in the rented MSC lightning snowshoes and hikers with my skis and boots strapped to my back 10 days ago. Walking from the Albion base up I made it to about 10k’ before deciding I should call it a day. Even though the turns were fun I still had the snowshoes on my back.
Looking at other options and knowing if I go down the plastic will still hurt, I picked up some Verts yesterday.
I will still go uphill in my hikers in the Verts but my options for a comfy spot to lace up my Zipfits and boots may be limited so I’ll test them out uphill with my Atomic ankle weights as well.
I’m planning to try tomorrow morning

 

[James]

I posted to @Brian Finch and @surfsnowgirl On a PM after reading this thread and came to this post and decided to share.
My skiing partner, mrsjmills started a conversation that was confusing to me regarding a ski budget and my doubling it this year after I mentioned a touring setup a few weeks back.
Reading this thread I looked into renting snowshoes at REI since there is a little snow remaining at Alta. I made my first attempt uphill in the rented MSC lightning snowshoes and hikers with my skis and boots strapped to my back 10 days ago. Walking from the Albion base up I made it to about 10k’ before deciding I should call it a day. Even though the turns were fun I still had the snowshoes on my back.
Looking at other options and knowing if I go down the plastic will still hurt, I picked up some Verts yesterday.
I will still go uphill in my hikers in the Verts but my options for a comfy spot to lace up my Zipfits and boots may be limited so I’ll test them out uphill with my Atomic ankle weights as well.
I’m planning to try tomorrow morning

View attachment 75185
View attachment 75178
View attachment 75177
View attachment 75179

What are they, solid snow shoes or you are actually going down hill on those?
Geez, now I'm thinking tele might not be that bad! Kill two birds with one stone.

 

[jmills115]

A snowshoe

http://www.verts.com/