The outside ski to outside ski drill.

[Rod9301]

Josh, tell me you're trolling with this post.

I skied with my kids today and I had plenty of time to try things.
Outside ski to outside ski, no problem carved or brushed turns, short or medium radius. No poles on the ground, inside ski up, no rotary.

Couldn't try long this because there were a lot of people around.

 

[Josh Matta]

With out video your the troll. There isn’t a ski single video in n the web of non carved turn with out fulcrum point.

 

[karlo]

There isn’t a ski single video in n the web of non carved turn with out fulcrum point.

ok, ok, already. I will be at Jay Peak next weekend. It's an end of year tradition for me and a friend, driving by the freshly fertilized Vermont farmlands. If you join us, I'll give it a go and you can video me, either doing it or making a fool of myself trying. I don't even fully understand what you're trying to get at, so I would also be very happy to learn what that is.

 

[François Pugh]

I guess it depends on what you consider "carved". Is any edge engagement at all grounds for disqualification?

 

[Rod9301]

How then can snowboarders make skidded turns?
Sure you can push on line leg against the other, but you can do the same with one foot on one ski, there are plenty of muscles to rotate one foot with the other one lifted.

 

[Josh Matta]

snowboarder have two point of contact along their board so its not relevant to our one point of contact.

Like I said in post number one, telling us you can do it is worthless. Video would get me to be quiet about it. No pole touch, no inside tip drag, no carve.

@karlo sorry I skipped out on last time, I was in Quebec. I should be at Jay next weekend at least on day if the weather is any bit nice.

 

[CalG]

snowboarder have two point of contact along their board so its not relevant to our one point of contact.

Like I said in post number one, telling us you can do it is worthless. Video would get me to be quiet about it. No pole touch, no inside tip drag, no carve.

@karlo sorry I skipped out on last time, I was in Quebec. I should be at Jay next weekend at least on day if the weather is any bit nice.

Josh Think about it. "Telling" only seems to be worthless to you.

I can say this about the drill (and about human's in general) If you practice, you will get better and discover abilities that seemed at first impossible.

 

[Josh Matta]

Well the entire point of this thread was to discredit the idea that outside ski to outside ski drill as done by the PSIA is not a really good way. They do not want ski drag but are ok with pole drag.

me personally I think we should balance though our feet, and tip drag(or tail drag in javelins) is a better way of doing it.

The thing is so far there has been over a year, its very easy to get video. The burden of proof lie with the person claiming they can do it. saying you can do it, I will never believe. Rod can go video. I know its impossible due to newtons 2nd law, and until otherwise proven otherwise everyone else is just making stuff up. It might be possible in javelins but I am willing to bet with the people who are claiming that might be dragging their tail are not realizing it. I am also willing to bet that Rod is skiing with his poles and not with out them.

You basically get a ratcheting turns like shown in my video, my attempt was awful(but noone else has been able to produce a non carved turn with out poles or ski drag) I had spent about a month prior to the video trying to be able to do this, to have better demo than the Demo team reference. turns out the demo team reference with pole drag is the only way to do it with out tip drag.

The thing is its not like I am some hack telling everyone else they are wrong. I am 10 year L3 who the PSIA thinks can ski and teach. I also spend more time on snow than anyone else in my ski school, and probably 99 percent of anyone you know. Not to mention I spend an amazing amount time reading about not just skiing, but physics in general. the reality my experience shouldn't carry any weight on this, its physics, its either true or its not, and so far from an objective stand point the crowd that thinks they can has not posted one ounce of objective proof to their claim. my pretty extensive experiments with not only myself but many other skiers instructors has only built the original hyposthesis that due to to way the world works, you must either have another point of contact or get the rotation from edging.

Maybe we should revisit this topic next year during ski season, and everyone posting most likely has a smart phone, go take video, I honestly WANT to be proven wrong to better understand this sport, if it is all possible I am wrong, but with out video I simply will not believe a single person. It like saying the easter bunny is real.......well maybe not that bad but pretty bad.

 

[JESinstr]

Well the entire point of this thread was to discredit the idea that outside ski to outside ski drill as done by the PSIA is not a really good way. They do not want ski drag but are ok with pole drag.

me personally I think we should balance though our feet, and tip drag(or tail drag in javelins) is a better way of doing it.

Josh, You say "not really a good way... Not a really good way to do what? Unfortunately, your initial video of Ballou says nothing about what is being demoed other than an outside ski turn. It goes no further than that and it also says nothing about it being a "Drill" IMO, there is no such thing as the "outside ski drill". There are however, many valuable drills that utilize only the outside ski witnessed by the variety of videos volunterred in this thread.

You are right of course that we balance through our feet but I think you "doth protest too much" about the pole dragging.

Back in August, (Page 8 of this forum) @mike_m did an admiral job of chronicling his participation at TrebleCone. Here are some excerpts from his reporting.

"JF's primary emphasis was twofold: 1. Being over, and balancing on, the new outside ski before starting down the hill, then letting gravity and the curve of the ski do most of the work (most skiers rush the start and fall inside, usually with upper-body rotation, and never establish a stable platform underfoot). 2. Effective upper/lower body separation."

"Much of the first day was spent balancing over the new outside ski in suspension, using a lifted inside half, instead of mashing down on the outside ski or forcing the skis to "turn," which often translates to braced, forced, or out-of-balance skiing. JF emphasizes being planted firmly on the entire footbed, including the heel, rather than driving forward into the cuff of the boot, which he feels restricts movement. (Jonathan suggests using a dorsiflexed foot at all times to help pull the foot down into the footbed.)"

Pursuant to Ballou's statement on dorsiflexion @LiquidFeet had a great interchange with Mike on this and the concept of "cuff neutral"

Because there is no elaboration in the video, when I look at Ballou's demo I see him trying to execute on the above. He remains in suspension (albeit with the help of poles but mores as "sensors" not fulcrums) balancing through the arch with little if any, increase in flexing until the skis exit the fall line and slope provides a higher edge angle and increased turning force. Until then, he is patiently "brushing" all the way.

Sidebar:
Speaking of Brushing, I would like to hear from anyone on their definition of what brushing is. IMO brushing is the combination of arch centered rotary and movement of the ski laterally away from the COM. In other words, Intentional, Controlled Skidding. And if you believe this is true, then you now have a way to teach the wedge
End Sidebar:

In my teachings this past winter, Getting newbees to understand that skiing requires a new methodology for fore and aft balance has been key to their progress. Instead of stupid boot drills, I take that time and put it toward learning dynamic stance based on dorsiflexion and feeling the resulting flattening of the arch to create a solid, workable platform.

In the end, unless we have Mr. Ballou et al here on the "Witness Stand" We will never be really sure what he is trying show us.











d

 

[Jamt]

Well the entire point of this thread was to discredit the idea that outside ski to outside ski drill as done by the PSIA is not a really good way. They do not want ski drag but are ok with pole drag.

me personally I think we should balance though our feet, and tip drag(or tail drag in javelins) is a better way of doing it.

The thing is so far there has been over a year, its very easy to get video. The burden of proof lie with the person claiming they can do it. saying you can do it, I will never believe. Rod can go video. I know its impossible due to newtons 2nd law, and until otherwise proven otherwise everyone else is just making stuff up. It might be possible in javelins but I am willing to bet with the people who are claiming that might be dragging their tail are not realizing it. I am also willing to bet that Rod is skiing with his poles and not with out them.

You basically get a ratcheting turns like shown in my video, my attempt was awful(but noone else has been able to produce a non carved turn with out poles or ski drag) I had spent about a month prior to the video trying to be able to do this, to have better demo than the Demo team reference. turns out the demo team reference with pole drag is the only way to do it with out tip drag.

The thing is its not like I am some hack telling everyone else they are wrong. I am 10 year L3 who the PSIA thinks can ski and teach. I also spend more time on snow than anyone else in my ski school, and probably 99 percent of anyone you know. Not to mention I spend an amazing amount time reading about not just skiing, but physics in general. the reality my experience shouldn't carry any weight on this, its physics, its either true or its not, and so far from an objective stand point the crowd that thinks they can has not posted one ounce of objective proof to their claim. my pretty extensive experiments with not only myself but many other skiers instructors has only built the original hyposthesis that due to to way the world works, you must either have another point of contact or get the rotation from edging.

Maybe we should revisit this topic next year during ski season, and everyone posting most likely has a smart phone, go take video, I honestly WANT to be proven wrong to better understand this sport, if it is all possible I am wrong, but with out video I simply will not believe a single person. It like saying the easter bunny is real.......well maybe not that bad but pretty bad.

No more skiing for me this year, but I will hopefully remember to revisit this the next season.

I agree fully with you that that a better way to do a brushed turn is to use the inside tip.

My experiments led me to the conclusion that outside to outside with no other contact points is relatively easy to do in short to medium turns, but they are hard to do and can easily become "ratchety" as you say when doing long slow ones like in the JB and JM demos. I believe that the major reason for this is that in long slow turns you cannot use dynamics and momentum as easily.

Now from a theoretical point of view I don't agree with you that it is impossible due to Newtonian physics. The ski is not symmetrical and it does not have symmetrical torque resistance. This means that you can manipulate the ski to slide more or less in the front compared to the tail. @James gave a good description of his experiments. I know I can either make the tips or tails slide down first when releasing. It is very hard to isolate tipping from rotary when doing this so exactly what is going on is difficult to prove through empirical tests. I have some ideas how to do that though and I hope to come back with more on that next season.

One last point. You say "you must either have another point of contact or get the rotation from edging". Off course you need edging, but there is a gradual use of the edges from full skidding to edge locked carving. You use edging in that entire continuum though.

 

[JESinstr]

No more skiing for me this year, but I will hopefully remember to revisit this the next season.

I agree fully with you that that a better way to do a brushed turn is to use the inside tip.

My experiments led me to the conclusion that outside to outside with no other contact points is relatively easy to do in short to medium turns, but they are hard to do and can easily become "ratchety" as you say when doing long slow ones like in the JB and JM demos. I believe that the major reason for this is that in long slow turns you cannot use dynamics and momentum as easily.

Now from a theoretical point of view I don't agree with you that it is impossible due to Newtonian physics. The ski is not symmetrical and it does not have symmetrical torque resistance. This means that you can manipulate the ski to slide more or less in the front compared to the tail. @James gave a good description of his experiments. I know I can either make the tips or tails slide down first when releasing. It is very hard to isolate tipping from rotary when doing this so exactly what is going on is difficult to prove through empirical tests. I have some ideas how to do that though and I hope to come back with more on that next season.

One last point. You say "you must either have another point of contact or get the rotation from edging". Off course you need edging, but there is a gradual use of the edges from full skidding to edge locked carving. You use edging in that entire continuum though.

Jamt
I don't agree that using the inside tip is a better way. It is an easier way no doubt but not a better way if one is to adhere to PSIA's fundamental #2. Now if your are an HH fan, then indeed you may be right.

As to the stuff in bold... you nailed it!

And to your final point, I also agree. Skis are designed to do two things. Go straight (Slide) or create circular travel (Carve). Straight is the default. One is either creating circular travel or failing to do so by choice or circumstance. Rotary and edge combination (brushing) in pursuit of circular travel is a dynamic,transitional state. The level of difficulty is dictated by terrain, speed and intent.

 

[Jamt]

Jamt
I don't agree that using the inside tip is a better way. It is an easier way no doubt but not a better way if one is to adhere to PSIA's fundamental #2. Now if your are an HH fan, then indeed you may be right.

As to the stuff in bold... you nailed it!

And to your final point, I also agree. Skis are designed to do two things. Go straight (Slide) or create circular travel (Carve). Straight is the default. One is either creating circular travel or failing to do so by choice or circumstance. Rotary and edge combination (brushing) in pursuit of circular travel is a dynamic,transitional state. The level of difficulty is dictated by terrain, speed and intent.

I'm not an HH fan, although I think he has a great material. I'm not PSIA, but @Josh Matta is so I don't know use of the inside tip has anything to do with affiliation.
I'm not very familiar with PSIA fundamentals but a quick googling came up with:
"Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski". I don't really see why this would disallow any use of the inside ski and why completely lifting it and the poles would be better for learning fundamentals. If no-one can do it as intended without ratchety movement I don't see why it would be better at all, which is the main point in @Josh Matta ´s reasoning.

If we were to talk about short or medium turns, then I could agree that you should be able to do both with and without the use of the inside ski tip.

 

[François Pugh]

Tricksy hobbitses!
If you lift your inside ski, where does the weight go?
If you body pulls the inside ski back, where is your body pulled?

 

[JESinstr]

I'm not an HH fan, although I think he has a great material. I'm not PSIA, but @Josh Matta is so I don't know use of the inside tip has anything to do with affiliation.
I'm not very familiar with PSIA fundamentals but a quick googling came up with:
"Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski". I don't really see why this would disallow any use of the inside ski and why completely lifting it and the poles would be better for learning fundamentals. If no-one can do it as intended without ratchety movement I don't see why it would be better at all, which is the main point in @Josh Matta ´s reasoning.

If we were to talk about short or medium turns, then I could agree that you should be able to do both with and without the use of the inside ski tip.

As always, I appreciate your comments and insight.

I entered this thread not because of the subject title, but because of Josh's initial complaint and his concern that there may be a future PSIA exam task based on what is shown in Ballou's video.

As I stated previously, Ballou's video says it is a demonstration and says nothing about being a drill. So my interest turned to what PSIA may be wanting to see from this demo task. I referenced an August thread on the teachings going on at TrebleCone, specifically the focus on creating a solid footbed from which the skier can dynamically balance.

As you pointed out, balancing on a skidding ski that is on mild terrain and attempting to make a large radius turn is difficult. Management and blending of rotary and balance is critical and directional stability can be fleeting.

So if my assumption that Ballou is demonstrating establishment and maintenance of footbed based balance is correct, what if anything should be allowed to take away the "ratchety movement " without taking focus off the outside leg flex pattern and rotary movements for the task at hand?

I have focused on this balance methodology and the concept of "Brushing" in my teachings this past year with great success, but I don't know if there is a need to demonstrate this function (again if that is the goal) at exams. If there is, I agree with Josh and see the long,slow brushed turn on mild terrain as potentially being problematic.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

There are many many variations of this and its now becoming a PSIA exam task. The PSIA is calling for the entire skis to be lifted of the snow. I have always and will always teach this with the tip down. The National Team Member I asked on youtube stated that....

"Holding the entire ski off the ground is more difficult from a lateral balance perspective. Putting the tip down can assist people who are back stay forward. The goal at this level of performance is to be centered rather than forward."

So let me be clear, at my current alignment I am awful at this drill as stated as soon as my entire ski comes of the snow I just go back and its feels very off balance. Over the past couple weeks I tried shimming out my binding to level my ramp off and voile I could easily do the drill then. I could even do it with no poles. Unlike the National Team member it meant I was not dragging my poles. The issue I ski like shit at that ramp angle.

This is Jonathan Ballou's verison of this drill, the USSA is promoting the same thing now.


I just want state to that jonathan is among the people I most respect about ski teaching, but IMO this is purely chasing a look and ideology that is not based on objective facts. but I quite frankly find this demo pure and utter crap, its looks very static and he is dragging his inside pole as a means of staying upright though is 2nd point of contact. His skiing is typically exemplary, far better than I could ever hope to achieve.

USSA use to like the tip Down


Reilly and JF both like to keep the tip down. IMO this is a much more natural ways of doing this drill. Objectively speaking its is far easier to keep the COM moving forward if your only focusing on lifting the tail of the inside ski. Easier in my mind = better. Drills are suppose to build or replace on skills we want to build in our skiing. For me and every student I have had, having them lift the entire inside ski just takes away confidence as every seeks to gain balance when the drill itself is putting them out of balance.

So Basically want I want to ask is objectively speaking which way is better and why? Is the PSIA just chasing a look and ideology here? maybe its to separate themselves from the PMTS style of doing things?

UPDATE>>>>>

here is my attempts my descriptions of this video is on page 3 of this thread.

I was just looking at the OP this morning and realizing how much of this is really about Josh and his ability to do the drill. Interesting to look at the comparison of Josh's alignment and body position vs. Jon Ballou, look at Josh around the 2:00 mark in the final video.

 

[Josh Matta]

hey even I was bad at this, no one else has posted good video of this....

 

[Josh Matta]

what really irks me about this entire thread is it sat dormant for an entire ski season...now there is no way to actually prove anything on snow for most of us. between post 69(april 15th 2017 and post 70 april 2, 2018)there was 11 months and 19 days had passed. yet not a single person either on this forum or off this forum could objectively do a not carved turn on the outside ski, with no other point of contact.

Now 116 post later, still no one has proven anything else to be true.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

hey even I was bad at this, no one else has posted good video of this....

I know, you even said as much in the OP. Is the video with your good alignment or your "I can do this drill, but not anything else" alignment? I'm just gonna guess that Ballou is using his everyday boot setup. So what's different? It looks to me like his lateral alignment is better. There is more light between his legs and he doesn't have to bend so far to the side to stay over his outside ski.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

what really irks me about this entire thread is it sat dormant for an entire ski season...now there is no way to actually prove anything on snow for most of us. between post 69(april 15th 2017 and post 70 april 2, 2018)there was 11 months and 19 days had passed. yet not a single person either on this forum or off this forum could objectively do a not carved turn on the outside ski, with no other point of contact.

Now 116 post later, still no one has proven anything else to be true.

I tried to get you out for videoing several times over the season, so don't blame me!

 

[James]

JB stays square and essentially turns the whole body quite slowly. It's a pretty big turn. There's probably more foot steering than from the hip.