Best of luck Magi. We have a pretty big crew coming from Aspen for the exam.
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The outside ski to outside ski drill.
- Thread starter Josh Matta
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Dang! It takes things to be said to me by different people in different ways for things to sink in!
Our resort clinician/trainer said "Pressure before Edge." O.K., but I am more interested in steering a flatter ski than edging/carving my turns.
Magi said:
"I find one thing critical to making the task happen: Directing pressure to the front of the ski with an ankle flexion/knee extension movement *before* tipping the ski to the big toe edge (I also find this critical in pretty much all my skiing). If you rotate the ski before it's engaged (generally by using some form of upper body rotation) you can't control the ski as precisely. When I really do it right, I feel the front of the ski engages and the snow turns the ski under me instead of me turning the ski."
(Do you really mean "ankle flexion (i.e., ankle closing), knee extension" meaning that the knee joint is opening and moving the hips over the boots and down the hill?)
If so, I will focus on that his weekend!
What I mean by a rotated/steered/guided flat ski (as opposed to an edge locked/pressured/carved turn) is likely what PSIA calls a "Basic Parallel." But there is simply no informational content in the phrase "Basic Parallel" for me.
Thanks for your help. Good luck Friday!
Our resort clinician/trainer said "Pressure before Edge." O.K., but I am more interested in steering a flatter ski than edging/carving my turns.
Magi said:
"I find one thing critical to making the task happen: Directing pressure to the front of the ski with an ankle flexion/knee extension movement *before* tipping the ski to the big toe edge (I also find this critical in pretty much all my skiing). If you rotate the ski before it's engaged (generally by using some form of upper body rotation) you can't control the ski as precisely. When I really do it right, I feel the front of the ski engages and the snow turns the ski under me instead of me turning the ski."
(Do you really mean "ankle flexion (i.e., ankle closing), knee extension" meaning that the knee joint is opening and moving the hips over the boots and down the hill?)
If so, I will focus on that his weekend!
What I mean by a rotated/steered/guided flat ski (as opposed to an edge locked/pressured/carved turn) is likely what PSIA calls a "Basic Parallel." But there is simply no informational content in the phrase "Basic Parallel" for me.
Thanks for your help. Good luck Friday!
Thanks Mike - if I get through the day without a disaster I'll call it a win.
I believe your trainer is spot on about "Pressure before edge" and the further implied both of those before turning the ski. Thought exercise: if your ski is off the ground [zero pressure], how can its edge angle matter? If you want to steer a ski, it can't be completely flat. Whether you're making a carved or a skidded turn, you need to use edges to go places. The difference in edging between a brushed turn and a carved turn is (basically) whether the ski is edged above or below the "Critical angle" relative to the slope.
I really do mean ankle flexion/knee extension (aka movements of the lower leg that move you forward). I do *NOT* mean down the hill. I mean project your mass along the direction of travel. Moving "down the hill" weights the inside ski and takes pressure away from the outside ski. (Unless your skis are pointing directly down the fall line). Implicit in the "pressure then edge" is pressure the outside ski then edge. (Note that ideally this all happens simultaneously, but if you're going to be wrong in your timing - be wrong by pressuring, then edging, then turning your legs.)
You're welcome, and thanks!
Brilliant...
That makes sense. In Projected Production's "the Zillertal Project", which I've watched multiple times and not yet gotten to write a review for the Tech Video thread, Ballou uses it to develop rounder, smoother turns. To me, that's a more concrete goal. "pressure and edge control" is too abstract for me.
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The point of the drill? Balance on outside ski. Edging a ski that you are balancing on vs. pushing the ski away to put it on edge (or worse still, pushing and twisting the ski to put it on edge).
Can this be a skidded turn? I'd say yes, but only if you are keeping the lifted skis tip on the snow or if you are dragging a pole or both poles. Try keeping just the inside corner of the inside ski on the snow and see what happens. Try keeping the tip lead to a minimum too.
Can this be a skidded turn? I'd say yes, but only if you are keeping the lifted skis tip on the snow or if you are dragging a pole or both poles. Try keeping just the inside corner of the inside ski on the snow and see what happens. Try keeping the tip lead to a minimum too.
Going back to Josh's original post, it might be worthwhile to note that most skis are not center-mounted. Thus, there is a little more weight in front of the boot than behind it. Could that be why some adjustment is necessary to lift the whole ski parallel to the snow?
I've certainly been known to do both (little toe edge dragging or whole ski parallel to the snow), and there is absolutely a difference. However, since I haven't been to a clinic in years, I wouldn't claim to be doing it well.
My history also includes learning how to 3-track in order to teach it at NSCD at Winter Park. There comes a point when the outriggers are no longer necessary and it can be done with pole touches without dragging the poles in between. The foot without a ski is generally very close to the snow, but touching it down at speed will lead to disaster very quickly, of course.
I've certainly been known to do both (little toe edge dragging or whole ski parallel to the snow), and there is absolutely a difference. However, since I haven't been to a clinic in years, I wouldn't claim to be doing it well.
My history also includes learning how to 3-track in order to teach it at NSCD at Winter Park. There comes a point when the outriggers are no longer necessary and it can be done with pole touches without dragging the poles in between. The foot without a ski is generally very close to the snow, but touching it down at speed will lead to disaster very quickly, of course.
Is the ski tip higher than the tail, or just off the snow with the tail further off the snow than the tip?
@T-Square
Tip higher than tail at times... especially WC SL. Tip up, seems to open the hips up and allows more counter through release.
Next time you're on snow, do Javelin turns... one set tip aggressively down... next set tip up/level. Try to counter while doing both. You'll notice countering on the tip-up version is easier, while the tip down version it is much more challenging (video below). When working with skiers, I use the tip down version for fore/aft and the normal version for upper body coordination.
Tip Down:
Tip Up/Level:
Tip higher than tail at times... especially WC SL. Tip up, seems to open the hips up and allows more counter through release.
Next time you're on snow, do Javelin turns... one set tip aggressively down... next set tip up/level. Try to counter while doing both. You'll notice countering on the tip-up version is easier, while the tip down version it is much more challenging (video below). When working with skiers, I use the tip down version for fore/aft and the normal version for upper body coordination.
Tip Down:
Tip Up/Level:
Tip is definitely higher than the tail.
Harb has a lot of pictures on this.
BTW, I tried outside to outside edge today, tip down, ski parallel to the snow (off the snow) carved or brushed, no poles on the snow.
No problem on any of these, so whatever said you can't brush a turn on one ski, better go and try it.
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Rod do you have video of you doing this task? your the first person to say that you are able to brush with out pole drag or touch and with out the other ski on the snow.
With out video I will not believe you, nor will others, in fact I got multiple PM from other forum member to alert me to this post.
@helvaskier nice turn man. great example of how the skis sidecut can create a turn. In brushed turn its impossible to not drag a tip or pole.
With out video I will not believe you, nor will others, in fact I got multiple PM from other forum member to alert me to this post.
@helvaskier nice turn man. great example of how the skis sidecut can create a turn. In brushed turn its impossible to not drag a tip or pole.
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My skis arent center mount and all the demos would have looked the same regardless of skis. Binding Ramp, and boot alignment would change the look.
If you work the ski fore to aft and without edge lock it is definitely possible.
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then a single video of it would exist on the net....
If its easy go video it and prove me wrong, till that happens Ill keep asserting.
If its easy go video it and prove me wrong, till that happens Ill keep asserting.
Do you also assert that it is not possible to do one legged falling leafs?
I think that in one of the projected productions videos there was a demo of brushed javelin turn. Don't remember which one. If so, would that qualify?
I guess it also depends on what the definition of "brushed turn" is. Is it a prerequisite that there should be no active steering whatsoever? Hard to prove in that case.
I think it is on Reilly's personal channel from his time that he spent in China last season or the season prior.
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then find the video....I searched VERY long to find a video. Even Reilly (who I chat with on FB) says it can nt be done.
This isnt about whether or not I can do it or not. This about not having a single video on the net of someone doing brushed outside footed ski turns with no pole touch or drag, and no inside ski drag. if someone can do it, I really want to see it, and have the person help me get there but there again isnt any proof, which in the age of smart phones is basically a lie.
Again post up the video, the thread is over a year old now, and not single video has been posted showing what you guys are claiming.
This isnt about whether or not I can do it or not. This about not having a single video on the net of someone doing brushed outside footed ski turns with no pole touch or drag, and no inside ski drag. if someone can do it, I really want to see it, and have the person help me get there but there again isnt any proof, which in the age of smart phones is basically a lie.
Again post up the video, the thread is over a year old now, and not single video has been posted showing what you guys are claiming.
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