The outside ski to outside ski drill.

[Erik Timmerman]

I'd think about trying to use flex of the outside ankle to bring the inside ski's tip down.

 

[CalG]

Thanks epic

As mentioned, I can always "correct", and bringing the ski tip down is the usual correction. I was under the impression that the drill would establish and confirm that correct stance and alignment were present as soon as the ski was lifted. Perhaps I expect too much.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The mind takes over when we do something unexpected on skis and anticipate disaster. Intuitive self-preservation can move one aft immediately.
Use your will power to overcome that innate reflex. Epic has it right.

Anytime you try something new on skis that challenges your balance, it will most likely reveal your mind's intuitive preference for maintaining balance on dry land, not your gear's physical effect. Mental effort will be needed to overpower the dysfunctional responses until you get new ones embedded.

 

[Magi]

I also find that skidded outside ski turns *without* a pole drag are really hard. I struggled for months trying to do them as prep for L2/L3 without the drag, and the second I added a small drag (hold the pole with thumb and index finger and let it just kiss the ground) they became near effortless. (Funnily enough - I added the drag after watching Jonathan's video and exclaiming "THAT'S ALLOWED?!"). I believe the difficulty comes out of not having something to turn the single ski against, and the barest whisper of a pole drag gives you absurdly more rotation/control.

My understanding of why PSIA wants the ski level vs tipped longitudinally is that it requires more control/awareness of your body through the turn. It also minimizes what you have to turn the outside ski against, again raising the difficulty/demonstrating control of shaping the turn.

I also find it interesting that PSIA-RM (Rocky Mountain) has a difference in the L2 and L3 version of the outside ski turn: at L2 the skier may pick up the ski AFTER edge change (but before the fall line); at L3 the ski is picked up BEFORE edge change.

 

[Josh Matta]

My issue with the pole drag even the light pole drag is it is promoting balance though the hands instead of balance though the feet. Lets face if you inside tip is on the ground are you really balancing on your inside foot? I still think having the ski level is yet another example of the PSIA chasing a "look" versus chasing actual ski performance. I also think that i the light pole drag is allowed you might well just coach a double a pole drag and level out people's bodies so they can be even more aware of their body.

Like I am saying this drill is impossible with out a second point of contact or just using the side cut. I have yet to see an example that shows other wise....

 

[Magi]

My understanding is that the inside tip being on/off the ground isn't about foot to foot pressure, it's about controlling flexion/extension and making the turn come primarily from the leg on the ground (not the inside tip steering). Examiners that I've spoken with don't care too much *how* level the ski is, as long as the tip and the tail are both off the ground. (Maybe it matters for getting a 5 or 6 on the task?)

My experience is that having the inside tip on the ground can generate far more turning force than a dragged pole (especially when that drag is very light). That's why at level 2, you're allowed to leave the tip on the ground and at level 3 you are not (because you should have significantly greater control at level 3).

Here's the Rocky Mountain IDP's take on the subject of the outside ski turn performance for level 3, under the heading of "pressure control" tasks:

Ski performance

-Outside ski is pressured through all turn phases
-Outside ski leaves brushed track in snow
-New inside ski is lifted prior to edge change
-Inside ski is off snow through all turn phases
-Inside ski is roughly parallel to snow surface​

Body performance

-Flexion/extension of the outside leg, along with movements of UB shifts CM and directs pressure towards outside foot
-Flexion of inside leg lifts foot off the snow
-Flexion and extension movements are progressive and keep center of mass over base of support
-Rotational and edge control movements originate in the legs under a stable pelvis and upper body​

None of it talks about "the look" of the inside ski beyond "not on ground", and I believe the "Stable pelvis and upper body" addresses your concern about leveling out people's bodies.

 

[Josh Matta]

not sure how having the tip or tail of the inside ski on the ground is not making the turn come primarily from the outside ski. Having the tip down can generate more turning force because for most people tip down is a really balanced position for the shaping and finishing phase of the turn. So its not that I am getting all of that, even Ballou on his video after my call out of the pole drag said it would be better if he did not that, as if it was actually possible with out the second point of contact.

The entire reason for starting this thread was to make it clear that the pole drag was necessary unless it was carved, IMO that make the drill a crap drill for a "pressure" control drill. I would personally coach inside ski drag over inside hand drag, because objectively inside pole drag means you are off balanced to the inside.

 

[Mike King]

Dragging something (a pole or ski tip, or even two poles for that matter) provides a fulcrum against which rotary force can be applied. Without a fulcrum, you can't apply rotary force.

The purpose of the lifted ski being more or less parallel to the snow is that it is an indicator that you are more or less centered along the length of the ski. It isn't about a "look," it is about the relationship of the CoM to the BoS.

Yet again, performing the outside ski drill without a fulcrum is about turning the ski without rotary; that is, with pressure and edge alone. And it can be done. I've seen it done by John Wiltgen, Jonathan Ballou, Josh Fogg, and others in Rocky Mountain. I've done it myself without mastery.

Mike

 

[Josh Matta]

Sure like I have been saying all long, this drill can be done carved with no fulcrum. Heck I even showed it in my videos. Its still unclear how a level ski shows some unicorn equilibrium .

 

[karlo]

This is Jonathan Ballou's verison of this drill

I'd love to hear his intent for this drill.

 

[Mike King]

I'd love to hear his intent for this drill.

Not sure what you are looking for -- Ballou's intent or the application of an outside ski drill? You'd have to ask Jonathan what his intent was when he made the video if that's your question. If you are asking what do you use an outside ski drill for, well, that drill has a multitude of applications. The most obvious is increasing the ability to direct pressure to the outside ski. You can also use it to learn how to turn a ski with edge and pressure as opposed to leg (or upper body/whole body) rotation. It can assist in checking alignment of the body to the ski. There's also fore/aft pressure management.

And on and on...

Mike

 

[karlo]

Not sure what you are looking for

I'm wondering if the OP's assumption that the objective is to be forward is correct. I would have thought the drill JB is doing presumes that the skier has already mastered fore aft balance and control. Just wondering.

I can speculate what JB's intent is, but what's the point?

 

[Mike King]

I'm wondering if the OP's assumption that the objective is to be forward is correct. I would have thought the drill JB is doing presumes that the skier has already mastered fore aft balance and control. Just wondering.

I can speculate what JB's intent is, but what's the point?

If you are going to turn the ski with only edge and pressure, then pressuring the front of the ski in the shaping phase of the turn is going to help you out.

 

[Paul S.]

No problems here!!

 

[razie]

I guess its usefulness, when compared to Javelins or Phantoms is it's simplicity, to isolate just the ski change and smooth it out. Mikaela's (or Burke's) version also focuses on stance (fore/aft, hands etc).

I don't like JB's demo - Josh's looks better, I'd say.

I also find no reason to not keep the tip down. That's what you want in normal skiing, so why do something else? All it does is to put you back (not centered, but back). The only reason could be maybe to emphasize the dorsiflexion of that foot, as I guess some people may plantarflex to get the tip down... but nobody mentioned that, so I don't think it is a focus.

I do like much more, Paul Lorenz's version (you may have to slow it down a lot and zoom in):




Now... if only mine would look like that

 

[Paul S.]

I was taught to start the drill with tip contact on the snow and once the student was able to do that, progress to totally lifted and level.

 

[razie]

I was taught to start the drill with tip contact on the snow and once the student was able to do that, progress to totally lifted and level.

What happens is:

a) most skiers would get lazy and just push the heel forward and let the boot geometry keep the ski level. That puts you way back and teaches nothing useful - more, it's worse because it distracts you from balance and stance adjustments.

b) if someone knew how to pull back the foot, he/she would have to dorsiflex a lot to keep the ski level. That's teaches something, but why not pull it back even more then and dorsiflex even more, resulting in the tip down, which now teaches something useful, worthy of the distraction?

 

[Mike King]

What happens is:

a) most skiers would get lazy and just push the heel forward and let the boot geometry keep the ski level. That puts you way back and teaches nothing useful - more, it's worse because it distracts you from balance and stance adjustments.

b) if someone knew how to pull back the foot, he/she would have to dorsiflex a lot to keep the ski level. That's teaches something, but why not pull it back even more then and dorsiflex even more, resulting in the tip down, which now teaches something useful, worthy of the distraction?

Well, the orientation of the ski in the air tells you a lot about fore/aft balance. If the ski is level with the snow, the skier is centered. If the tail is down, the skier is aft. If the tip is down, then the skier is forward. (usually).

Ballou is turning the ski with edge and pressure, not rotation. Dragging the tip provides a sliding fulcrum and rotational force. Different mechanics. Not what he is intending to do (I suspect, having skied with him in a clinic he led on this very subject).

Shiffin and Lorenz are looking for a different result. Lorenz isn't really doing an outside ski drill; he's skiing and directing pressure to the outside ski.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Here's the Rocky Mountain IDP's take on the subject of the outside ski turn performance for level 3, under the heading of "pressure control" tasks:
Ski performance
-Outside ski is pressured through all turn phases
-Outside ski leaves brushed track in snow
-New inside ski is lifted prior to edge change
-Inside ski is off snow through all turn phases
-Inside ski is roughly parallel to snow surfaceBody performance
-Flexion/extension of the outside leg, along with movements of UB shifts CM and directs pressure towards outside foot
-Flexion of inside leg lifts foot off the snow
-Flexion and extension movements are progressive and keep center of mass over base of support
-Rotational and edge control movements originate in the legs under a stable pelvis and upper body

This thread is excellent in my HUMBLE opinion,

My goal this season was and is still to learn the PSIA rotational/guided/flat ski turn. I suck at it because I have been relying on pressure/edge for years.

Magi and Josh is there an outside to outside ski drill video where -Outside ski leaves brushed track in snow without an inside pole drag?

1. Is it possible that the mass of the hips/torso can be braced against to rotate/guide the flat outside ski throughout the turn so that the Outside ski leaves a brushed track in the snow?

2. If not, is it possible that the mass of the hips/torso can be braced against along with the downward flexion of the outside ski leg to be torqued against the hip joint to rotate/guide the flat outside ski throughout the turn so that the Outside ski leaves a brushed track in the snow? (Like when you push down on one of those old-time mechanical screw drivers that turns the screw as you push down.)

If I am going to practice this outside to outside drill I want it to aid me in learning the PSIA rotational/guided/flat ski turn. I have no interest in turning it into a pressure/edge drill.

Two weekends ago a Squaw Level 3 friend was yelling at me to get my inside pole off the snow after my pole plant. It is hard for me to do in the bumps, but when I do, it instantly moves my body out of the back seat and down the hill and makes initiating the next turn much easier.

But my guess is that I can rotate/guide a flat ski in those instances because my mass is moving down the hill and that the gravity induced movement of my mass down the hill along with the friction on the moving ski (which increases as the ski becomes more sideways to the terrain) provides a force to twist against and that the friction on the base of the ski assists twisting to complete the turn. That forward movement and thus also the ski base friction is reduced on the green groomed terrain on which the drill appears to be demonstrated in these videos.

If you would please let me know, I would appreciate it, because this is all new to me this season.

P.S. Feel free to attack me, or my ideas, but please also provide constructive info.

P.S.S. Flame suit on, visor down,..

 

[Magi]

This thread is excellent in my HUMBLE opinion,

My goal this season was and is still to learn the PSIA rotational/guided/flat ski turn. I suck at it because I have been relying on pressure/edge for years.

Magi and Josh is there an outside to outside ski drill video where -Outside ski leaves brushed track in snow without an inside pole drag?

1. Is it possible that the mass of the hips/torso can be braced against to rotate/guide the flat outside ski throughout the turn so that the Outside ski leaves a brushed track in the snow?

If I am going to practice this outside to outside drill I want it to aid me in learning the PSIA rotational/guided/flat ski turn. I have no interest in turning it into a pressure/edge drill.

It is possible to make a brushed turn on one ski. (The level 3 standard couldn't be passed if it wasn't) Fingers crossed I'll be demoing that I can do it at the L3 standard in two days. I don't have any video to show you though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the PSIA rotational/guided/flat ski turn", so I can't comment on that specifically. I can say that figuring out how to actually do an outside ski turn and being able to change the performance between skidded and carved at will has made my general skiing *much* better.

I find one thing critical to making the task happen: Directing pressure to the front of the ski with an ankle flexion/knee extension movement *before* tipping the ski to the big toe edge (I also find this critical in pretty much all my skiing). If you rotate the ski before it's engaged (generally by using some form of upper body rotation) you can't control the ski as precisely. When I really do it right, I feel the front of the ski engages and the snow turns the ski under me instead of me turning the ski.

But my guess is that I can rotate/guide a flat ski in those instances because my mass is moving down the hill and that the gravity induced movement of my mass down the hill along with the friction on the moving ski (which increases as the ski becomes more sideways to the terrain) provides a force to twist against and that the friction on the base of the ski assists twisting with to complete the turn. That forward movement and thus also the ski base friction is reduced on the green groomed terrain on which the drill appears to be demonstrated in these videos.

The orientation of a flat ski doesn't change the amount of friction created through ski/snow interaction (you still weigh the same, your ski has the same coefficient of friction, and the area of the ski hasn't changed). What changes is that the ski is generally *not* completely flat when oriented in a sideslip - so you're pushing more snow as the edge digs in. My understanding is - moving (transferring energy to) snow and going uphill are the primary ways to change your speed while skiing.