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Philpug

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I touched on this in Part 2, but why do boots get more expensive as they get stiffer? Well, often the quality of the materials is higher, but it's not that stiffer plastic is more expensive or more rare, just that it is worth more in a 130-flex boot than in a 110. A stiffer boot is more expensive simply because of marketing and perception. But shouldn’t a lightweight skier who has an average range of ankle motion and only needs a 100-flex boot be able to get the same materials and liner as the top-end offering? Shouldn’t they be able to get the same adjustability and modification capacity as a bigger and stronger skier? Yes. So why can’t they?

BOOT 3 1170x538 with shadow.jpg


Every manufacturer trickles down the features it feels are relevant to the lower-level and softer boots. Some manufacturers do offer canting capability via replaceable soles down to 80ish-flex boots. Proper canting to accommodate stance is very important to a skier's progression. Most manufacturers stop other features at much higher boot levels, and price points. These are such features as buckles attached with screws and t-nuts versus rivets. T-nuts allow a bootfitter to access an area of the shell to heat and punch without the risk that an attached buckle will hold the high heat and melt the shell. The same goes for attaching the upper cuff with a larger rivet, which makes it very difficult for a fitter to work in the ankle area of the lower shell, an area that commonly needs attention. This is more difficult because the lower shell is usually very thick in this area and requires more heat to penetrate to punch. What could using t-nuts and a removable cuff cost over riveting buckles and permanently attaching the cuff to the shell? Maybe $5, $10, $15 a pair?

The liner quality is the area that is sacrificed the most as you drop to a lower price point. I challenge anyone to go into a shop and pull the liners out of an 80, 100, and 130 and start playing with them. Flex them, put your hand in and feel the ankle pocket (if there even is one). Search for any contouring for the ankle bones, a very sensitive area. Look at the toe box, is there neoprene or just the same material as the rest of the liner? This is the part that actually touches your foot; see if it is even shaped like a foot.

Now look at the best liners: different-density foams and materials are strategically placed, there is more stitching, and everything is done at a higher level of attention. If the entry- and mid-level skiers are the future of the sport, we want them to stay in it, so why are we giving them an inferior product in what we all agree is the most important piece of equipment they will own?

The simple answer is price. But a lower-flex boot does not need to be a lower-quality boot, especially with a skier who probably won't replace gear as often as a high-performance skier. Lower-quality boots are generally replaced not when they are outperformed but when they are so worn that they won’t pass the visual test during binding adjustment. Meanwhile, the inferior liner had packed out years ago, and the skier had no idea that the reason he struggled to make that left turn was that his foot was moving around in a disintegrated liner. He might even have already decided that skiing just wasn't his thing.

So how do we address this? Do we really need a boot offered at every $50 or $100 increment? Any fitter worth his or her salt knows it is easier to soften a boot than to stiffen it. By streamlining and improving their offerings, manufacturers will be able to reduce inventories, which will then reduce costs. Let's take one 120-flex boot as an example: this manufacturer takes the shell from its 130 (a stiffer plastic) and the liner from the 110 (a softer, lower-quality liner), combines the two, and voilà! A 120-flex boot. Why not just soften the shell of the 130 that has the better liner? If you put the same quality of liners in all boots, you would reduce the number of molds necessary and therefore costs. All of this could make boots more affordable, more profitable, and, best of all, more better! A win-win-win for the industry.

A 130-flex boot is not worth $100 more than a 120 or $200 more than a 110; it probably doesn't use even $50 of extra material. The same quality boot can be designed and built for different skiers at a comparable price. It has been discussed over and over in the industry: dealing with boots is on par with going to the dentist, the most stressful part of the skiing process. Few things can spoil the skiing experience like a poorly fitting boot. The industry knows this but, I believe, is addressing it from the wrong angle. We are trying to fix the situation by offering features that make it easier to walk. We need to fix boots not from the outside in, but from the inside out. Let's make boots that fit feet! A properly fitting boot can and will turn people who ski into skiers.
Artwork: @Dave Petersen
 
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bbinder

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Everything that you makes perfect sense to me. But I have to think that the manufacturers have a good reason to maintain the status quo. What is the profit margin on a pair of boots? How much does it cost the manufacturer to make them? What kind of markup do we see in the shop? These may be uncomfortable questions for the insiders to answer, and I get it: if the margins are high, then there may be worry that the consumer/public will clamor for lower prices. I certainly understand the reason to charge whatever mark-up is being used -- everyone deserves to make a decent living at the work that they do, and markups are the only way to accomplish a profit. Are the better materials and/or better features a way to get a skier to invest in another pair of boots as they improve? I certainly agree with you, Phil, that all of this feels topsy turvy and counter-productive -- why not educate the new skier better so that they will invest in proper fitting boots at the start? I think that most of us have had the experience of 'graduating' from one boot to another until we 'discovered' the value of paying for proper fit in a quality boot. Is the new skier not interested in this?
 
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Everything that you makes perfect sense to me. But I have to think that the manufacturers have a good reason to maintain the status quo. What is the profit margin on a pair of boots? How much does it cost the manufacturer to make them? What kind of markup do we see in the shop? These may be uncomfortable questions for the insiders to answer, and I get it: if the margins are high, then there may be worry that the consumer/public will clamor for lower prices. I certainly understand the reason to charge whatever mark-up is being used -- everyone deserves to make a decent living at the work that they do, and markups are the only way to accomplish a profit. Are the better materials and/or better features a way to get a skier to invest in another pair of boots as they improve? I certainly agree with you, Phil, that all of this feels topsy turvy and counter-productive -- why not educate the new skier better so that they will invest in proper fitting boots at the start? I think that most of us have had the experience of 'graduating' from one boot to another until we 'discovered' the value of paying for proper fit in a quality boot. Is the new skier not interested in this?
Fair questions @bbinder, what the new skier that they need a better boot than just an entry level one which is produced with materials and will enhance the learing experience. Lets not put a sub par liner in an entry level boot that will pack out after a couple of weeks of skiing. Yes, this is where a new skier does need to see a good fitter and like said in the post, a good fitter can soften a better boot which will have a better liner.
 

AmyPJ

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As one of those skiers who would prefer a higher-quality boot (and narrower!) but is lighter weight and seems REALLY happy in a 90 flex, I can relate to this article. I packed the liners out in my boots in less than 80 days last season. (Probably closer to 50, really.)

The lack of truly low-volume boots in the softer flexes is also frustrating.
 

chemist

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The lack of truly low-volume boots in the softer flexes is also frustrating.
Certainly, the selection of really low-volume boots in softer flexes is very limited. But what about the Head Raptor B5? Really low volume, and Head lists it as offering a 100 flex, which could be further softened. The 93 mm Dalbello DRS World Cup XS probably also maps to a 100 flex but, while it's narrow, its instep is not low. Of course, 100 in these boots may mean something very different from a 100 in a recreational boot....
 
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AmyPJ

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Certainly, the selection of really low-volume boots in softer flexes is very limited. But what about the Head Raptor B5? Really low volume, and Head lists it as offering a 100 flex, which could be further softened. The 93 mm Dalbello DRS World Cup XS probably also maps to a 100 flex but, while it's narrow, its instep is not low. Of course, 100 in these boots may mean something very different from a 100 in a recreational boot....
The Raptors are intriguing to me. I am not a fan of the idea of going into a plug boot, honestly. I need a lot of canting (yes, actual canting) and love how the Cantology plates can be easily replaced if I wear them out. Also, comfort might be an issue, especially since I'll be working as a "mountain host" this season and might be standing around in my boots a lot. I'm going to need to either get boot heaters or warmer liners, or both.

So, those are my hesitancies. Plus, I bought boots just last season and after having canting done, just can't drop the coin again on a new pair AND the work that needs to be done.
 
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The Raptors are intriguing to me. I am not a fan of the idea of going into a plug boot, honestly. I need a lot of canting (yes, actual canting) and love how the Cantology plates can be easily replaced if I wear them out. Also, comfort might be an issue, especially since I'll be working as a "mountain host" this season and might be standing around in my boots a lot. I'm going to need to either get boot heaters or warmer liners, or both.

So, those are my hesitancies. Plus, I bought boots just last season and after having canting done, just can't drop the coin again on a new pair AND the work that needs to be done.
Don't confuse what the boot is with what it does. Don't think if it as a plug boot but a narrow boot that will fit your foor. If you go with a solid lug boot like a Raptor, you won't need Cantology strips. The fitter will plane the sole then put on a new sole that will be replacable.
 

AmyPJ

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Don't confuse what the boot is with what it does. Don't think if it as a plug boot but a narrow boot that will fit your foor. If you go with a solid lug boot like a Raptor, you won't need Cantology strips. The fitter will plane the sole then put on a new sole that will be replacable.

This I was not aware of. Good to know. One concern is that I'll be walking around a lot near the gondolas and wearing my soles out fast. I'd like to get one more season out of my boots. I'm either going to get some softer Intuition liners in them, or the BD ones. Are the BD ones re-moldable for a different boot shell?

Narrow, low-volume feet SUCK for ski boots, BTW.
 
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This I was not aware of. Good to know. One concern is that I'll be walking around a lot near the gondolas and wearing my soles out fast. I'd like to get one more season out of my boots. I'm either going to get some softer Intuition liners in them, or the BD ones. Are the BD ones re-moldable for a different boot shell?

Narrow, low-volume feet SUCK for ski boots, BTW.

Foam Liners are usually are for one shell..usually. If anything, yout might be able to go to a higher vol shel from a lowere but not the other way.
 

AmyPJ

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Foam Liners are usually are for one shell..usually. If anything, yout might be able to go to a higher vol shel from a lowere but not the other way.
I've got some decisions to make. I'll get out on my skis in my current boots and see if those decisions are made "easier". I wish the Zipfits could take up more volume for me. The Intuitions I bought last season (the Pro Tongue) offer this incredible amount of support and hold my foot in place very well despite feeling roomy-ish, but at the cost of being a little TOO responsive for me. I'm not ready for that much response from a liner/boot yet. I still send some awkward signals to my skis, particularly in 3D snow conditions.
 

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I've got some decisions to make. I'll get out on my skis in my current boots and see if those decisions are made "easier". I wish the Zipfits could take up more volume for me. The Intuitions I bought last season (the Pro Tongue) offer this incredible amount of support and hold my foot in place very well despite feeling roomy-ish, but at the cost of being a little TOO responsive for me. I'm not ready for that much response from a liner/boot yet. I still send some awkward signals to my skis, particularly in 3D snow conditions.

While I am not an instructor or anything close to a technical skier, it still seems to me that the more responsive a boot/ski set up, the better able you are to recover from a mistake regardless of ability.
 

AmyPJ

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While I am not an instructor or anything close to a technical skier, it still seems to me that the more responsive a boot/ski set up, the better able you are to recover from a mistake regardless of ability.
My personal experience says no. I think there is a fine line when the signals I send are still not precise enough, so I need some forgiveness in the setup. It's easy to overcorrect a mistake, and if the boot/liner transmits my unbalance too quickly, it spells a crash. I had this happen with the new liners on a GREEN run last winter, where I truly have no idea how I was suddenly airborn. I landed flat on my back and slid about 25 feet.

The true experts can weigh in, but that was my personal experience. I just felt I had to be SO precise with those liners, and I just don't have the established skills to be that precise yet.
 
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While I am not an instructor or anything close to a technical skier, it still seems to me that the more responsive a boot/ski set up, the better able you are to recover from a mistake regardless of ability.
You would think that could be the case, but lets swing the pendulum all the way to one side and talk about a world cup slalom ski, it is very responsive but it is very difficult to recover from a mistake. The smaller the sweetspot, the less tolerance there is. In Amy's case, it is a matter of finding that boot with the best balance of snug fit and performance, yes I know that is everyones problem. But lets go back to previous editions of The Numbers Game, where I talk about not all numbers are equal, and that is in the width area. Amy needs a narrow boot, she is in a Salomon Max boot that is supposed to be narrow and now she is trying to fill the volume. This is not the answer. Amy asks about a Plug boot, could this be the answer? Very well, not seeing her feet I cannot say. There will be a cost to everything, a good fitter might be able to work with her foot in it and get the performance she wants, but there will be a cost, less comfort and warmth, there is jsut not enoug insulation and material to provide them. Is she willing to give them up? Don't know yet. But what we do know is what she is doing now is not working.
 

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Interesting. I get it. I had a lot of years in race boots, the same boots that people commonly refer to as plugs these days. I had good luck with Nordica's lace up liners for many years. About five years ago, I made a boot change, and a liner change to a very firm tight foam liner.

They were a pretty aggressive setup, and what I realized was that they had what felt to me to be a serious "on-off switch". No rolling or easing into anything. I went back to the stock liner, and it was better. But, for me, not ideal.

Some of it was the. fact that I was also making ski changes, and skiing in a lot of different terrain and conditions. Previously most real firm, steep groomers. Think race trails. My boots were fine on a narrow race ski or carver. On my 196cm Bodacious in cruddy conditions, not so much.

So I made a change two seasons ago, went into a boot with a good geometry for me, a good stance. Softer. Lange RX 130. Went with a softer foam liner {BD}, and a WC Booster strap.

I've been really pleased with it. As "precise" as I need it to be, on real hard snow. Puts me in a good stance to ski the center of a lot of my skis. Liner is a great mix of everything. Firm fit, no voids, feels responsive and more comfortable and warmer than I had hoped for.

I'm a good skier, but the really agressive on off switch in my previous boots was not working, as I had different needs, and this does. I wasn't getting thrown all over the place in the old boot, but just a little move and WHAM, the tip would engage, up on edge, hooking up. Not really what I need, or want! Not forgiving.

In general, I'd say good tight, firm fit is good. Personal preference, I guess. It is all about what works best, and sometimes it starts with the boot.

Putting my new liner in my previous boot would have likely been a bit better, but the whole new setup is what really is working.
 
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pais alto

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pais alto

me encanta el país alto
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^Oh hell yes!
 
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I didn't see it posted but I would really love the option of buying just a shell; no liner.
It is done, an individual just does not have the buying power. Surefoot buys jsut shells and puts in their own liners, I think Sidas in another. Thats not what you are asking though, is it? When manufactures are trying to limit the SKU's (Inventory options) you are basically asking htem to double it with options that they woudl make less profit on. It is not in their best interest.
 

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Soo.... its not in their best interest to do many of the things discussed in this thread :) I thought this is more of a "if I could" discussion?

they could offer boots ala carte and make even more.... Think outside the box
 
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